Low AMH/High FSH Cycle Buddies - Part 7

[queenie123]

katkat - yes I have quite high LH and FSH at the start of the cycle (like around 15 ish). Not sure what my testesterone is I haven't had it done for ages.
1 have 2 blasts at serum, 6AA and 3/4CC, and 1 d3 8 cell at Create.
Create really really pushed me not to do a fully natural cycle, but my plan for the 1 d3 one which I have left at Create was to do a natural cycle and hopefully transfer 2 x d3 ones (1 frozen, 1 fresh) depending on lining.  BUt right now I have paid for another cycle at Serum and have just had they hysto with them, so really feel like I need to give P a chance to make it work.
I did get more eggs with Bemfola, but I actually think that was more to do with the stem cells, and I still only got 1 good embryo.
Really interested to hear how you get on with the T, interesting to hear what you say about it being in our heads - see below.
I think for a scratch the effects go after 1 month, (I had implantation cuts this time, which are a lot deeper)


Klik - Thanks so much, yes my plan was to do as you suggested - I have come closer with the medicated transfer I did at Create.  But Penny doesn't freeze on day3 and I wonder if I need to do d3 transfers.  I can't remember if I did a bit of luteal suport beforehand on that cycle with just the bcp or it if was 100% natural before the last couple of days?  Penny wouldn't do 100% natural transfer just in case we missed the egg, so don't really have a choice if I want a d3 transfer.
Thank you for sharing what you did naturally to get your beautiful bfp.  I will keep in mind some luteal support, testing late and checking E2, Prog and bHCG to be sure.
I also think it's interesting what you say about choosing not to do certain things to keep the stress down, I could learn from you.

Babyhopeful - see below for the advice P gave me this time.  For me, whenever I have a transfer I am always waiting for the penny to drop - for that day when I can pin-point the embryo died.  it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy, try, just beleving it wil work -  waking up in the morning and saying 'I am a mother'...

LXP - Hi

Helenbeau - were we at Serum on the same day?  When was your EC? Did you have hysto as well?
Congrats on your transfer, how do you know they haven't stuck - itsn't it too early to be sure.
Helen - if this was me I would try a own egg on a natural cycle (or nearly natural) along side it - if you can cope with it.

 Have you had an RER?  You could do just to check the receptivity is right for a d5/6 transfer.

Shady - I have just realised I haven't said Congrats.  I have been telling my DH about all the natural pregnancies on here. I find it amazing.
I have a very good friend who couldn't afford IVF and had been trying for 3 years, she did the iron man and got pregnant the week later, probably because her body just relaxed after all that exercise!

Briss - You seem to have such bad luck with early ovulation, you managed to do a good cycle which held on stims, I know it's more money, but it might be worth it if you get the egg.  Maybe give yourself a month off - so you get past your mostly stressful period and then you should be goood to go.
ON the flat/house side, it sounds a great opurtunity to buy under market value - have you got any family members who could help you for a while, you can always ask the landlords to put in the paperwork for a lease extension then you have the option of doing it, and re-mortgaging in 6 months time once you have srpuced the place up a bit to pay off your family members. 
I can't imagine how hard it is to do ivf whilst renting, we bought a few years before we started trying and it was a mission - took all our spare money, now we have no spare becuase of all the cycles we keep having.


Thanks guys - I really appreciate your sympathy - looking at how many crap results I have had recently, I can't help wondering it there has been a DHEA effect.  I almost want to give my ovaries a few months off - but I#m not sure what to do about the implantation cuts - P recomended 2 months.
It's really tempting to see if Brno will do a natural collection next month just to try to bank another in-between.

P also gave me her 'Universe' speach - has anyone else had it?  I think she is amazing to think like that, you would NEVER catch a dr in the UK telling a patient that they needed to believe they were pregnant and imagine having the baby where they will put it etc. and then they would have it. 

[FertilityFriends]

[Helenbeau]

Hi Queenie, yeah Penny gave me the exact same speech! Told me I am pregnant now and to make plans and make a note of the due date etc. It’s doesn’t make any difference though. I did have EC as I used donor eggs for the first time. I was in last Friday for transfer. I know it’s not worked though as it’s day 9 past 5dt. I would have a faint line by now and my pulse isn’t a pregnancy pulse. I know we are meant to wait til day 12 but I Frer would pick it up by now. My boobs have stopped being sore etc.
So you think just do a natural cycle where they collect my one dominant follicle and then transfer that back with donor eggs too? You said Penny doesn’t do natural cycles so how would I do this and control ovulation? I’d be into doing it but only problem would be paying another 3K just to get 1 egg...is that how much it would cost or is natural cheaper than a stim cycle?

Ladies, I’m confused about how many days progesterone should be taken before transfer. When do you start progesterone after EC, that evening or the morning after? And if the first day you take it is day one is a day 5 transfer on the 5th day or the morning of the 6th?

[Helenbeau]

Queenie I forgot to say, what’s an RER? Is that like an ERA receptivity test? I’ve never done it as I’ve been pregnant twice both times the transfer was on the fifth day after EC, so I’ve always thought that I’m obviously receptive then. This transfer was on the 6th day plus I started the progesterone the evening before the 6th day so that’s why I wonder if it was just too late for me. That’s who I asked about how many days of progesterone before EC x

[katkat2014]

Babyhopeful, hang in there, I don't think symptoms means that much (easier said than done as I'd be the same!).

Klik I am not so sure as with the positive bfp the 2  x 8-cell embryos didn't stick so maybe a 7mm lining was too thin? Scan tomorrow but I have zero cm or ewcm. But I guess that's the Tamoxifen. If I have a big follicle at that stage then I guess there is no chance for my lining to make it. They say it takes 7-10 days for it to take effect. that would be days 14-17 of my cycle so after trigger shot and even EC!

Briss ah man that's just really rubbish! In future can you fly the same day when you trigger and scan the next morning,maybe have egg collection later that day around noon? I am in the same boat as you in terms of mortgage. We are renting and at the moment trying to do both, buy a place and IVF. Stressful!

Queenie the reason I was asking about the LH was because bin was told in this case letrozole, menopur etc not so good and gonal F which I think is bemfola much better....

Helen have already pm you but am really sorry for this outcome!! In particular with 2 hatching aa blasts. In regards to your question, on a fresh EC cycle you start progesterone that night and then 5 days later have a day 5 embryo transferred. On a FET cycle you start progesterone on day x (for example day 14) in the morning! and then transfer is on day 19 which is 6 days later. So you take 5.5 days of progesterone on a fresh cycle and 6 full days of progesterone on a FET. You however took 6.5 days of progesterone. Well, technically, if would be 5 on fresh and 5.5 days  on frozen (and you took 6 days ), because you take that last dose at night of and after the embryo transfer. But don't ask me WHY there is a difference in P. on a fresh and a frozen transfer. I did the era and I was receptive on progynova and progesterone as normal at P+5 which is on the 6th day of progesterone. That's why I really wanted to do a FET to replicate this. Because on a fresh cycle I basically am on half a day less of progesterone as you only start it after EC in the evening. So I convinced myself that maybe just maybe I am not receptive on a fresh cycle and only on an FET. And in your case , perhaps just perhaps a natural cycle is where YOU are receptive, as you have had a couple of pregnancies on a fresh cycle?

I hope someone can reconfirm what I wrote above as I don't want to get this wrong.

Also I really want to know why you only start with P. The evening of EC and why not in the morning?

[queenie123]

Helen - P just uses cetrotide and trigger on a natural cycle.  I have never paid 3k for 1 cycle, I always do the 2 cycle package even with natural so you pay 4k on the first cycle you bank the embryo then on the second cycle you aim to put back in 1 frozen and 1 fresh.   If you ask nicely she might do something bespoke for you.  You have already mentioned that DE didn't feel any different to you, so it's completely personal. 

I wouldn't give up just yet, try to put it out of your mind, be positive and as klik said - test late,  a urine one can miss it, some embryo's need time to bed-in, go for a blood test if you want to check now.

Queenie I forgot to say, what’s an RER? Is that like an ERA receptivity test? I’ve never done it as I’ve been pregnant twice both times the transfer was on the fifth day after EC, so I’ve always thought that I’m obviously receptive then. This transfer was on the 6th day plus I started the progesterone the evening before the 6th day so that’s why I wonder if it was just too late for me. That’s who I asked about how many days of progesterone before EC x

I meant ERA, sorry RER is a different anachronism for something else.  If you've been pregnant before you might not need it - I just like having all the information.

I know it sounds nuts, for the psychological aspect but I do think there is something in it.  a good friend of my had DOR, had multiple failed transfers and on the first one she was believing it and not waiting for something to go wrong it took and she now has beautiful twins. 

In my 20's I lived with a couple who were going through IVF on the NHS, their problems were never as bad as mine, but they had chromosomal abnormalities, and she had recurrent miscarriages.   She 'believed' every transfer that they were her babies, and it hit her really really hard when she lost them, time and time again - she was never successful through IVF and ended up adopting.   I have experienced a lot of loss in my life (never a pregnancy), but still, I just know deep down that I can't begin to go through the loss that she went through - so it's easier for me to not believe it is real until there is some evidence to show otherwise, and It really struck a chord when Penny told me to believe it.   I have no idea how to guard my heart and also be 100% in.

Katkat - Thanks, I don't respond to lots of menopur early on in the cycle for that reason, I thought the main problem with high LH was the maturation phase, which is where you get abnormal follicular androgen's and therefore poor egg quality.  My LH is no where near as high as some people (eg. Briss)  But you are right, I am quite sensitive to LH,  I have never had a good quality embryo when I use it even earlier on in the cycle.

[katkat2014]

Does anyone know if a trigger HCG shot can adversely affect implantation? So for example is it better on a natural cycle to wait for natural ovulation, or to trigger (in terms of implantation potential/lining receptivity?

Also, are small dosages of gonal F or menopur okay in the follicular phase in terms of embryo implantation, or does a fully natural cycle make your lining more receptive?

Scan day 10 today showed lining not properly trilaminar and just about 4.2mm. 2 small follicles at 9-10mm, all others are tiny. So that musy be the suppression from the 2 months of estrogen and decapeptyl as normally they are around 12-17mm now. So I can either just wait for my dominant follicle to grow or help a little bit with some stims. My main aim is transfer of my frozen embryo. If I get an egg fine and if not fine too. But I don't want to take stim and a trigger if that's bad for the lining. I don't want to ask the clinic as they said I should do a fully natural cycle (never got an explanation why). But my thinking is if I manage to get 2 follicles to grow then my estrogen will be higher and my lining has a better chance to grow. Perhaps they didn't want me to do stim because I had so many unsuccessful transfers on stim cycles. But on those cycles I always took like 100-150iu and had high estrogen. Now am thinking 75 IU a day from tomorrow or so. Help!
I hope the Tamoxifen does it's thing soon and my estrogen will start now as have zero cm or ewcm and usually have lots at this stage.

[queenie123]

Katkat -  I don't know enough about how trigger affects receptivity.

But if you wanted to take a little bit of stims, it won't stop you having a natural peak on it's own - I know for me when I take a little bit of menopur my limning definitely gets thicker
 
but if you do take a low does stims and wait for a natural ovulation the eggs might not be mature as there are two of them. 

[katkat2014]

Thanks so much Queenie! To be honest a trigger will be better anyway because I find it so hard to guesstimate the time your ovulated and don't want the window of implantation to be out.

Do you think low dose stims could be done with gonal F as well (I did better on gonal when I did my full stim cycles) and I have some leftover. Dr p said that gonal F won't do anything for lining only menopur a tiny bit but that both will speed up follicle growth. Which I know means the faster they grow the less chance for the lining to grow. Arghh! Maybe that's why he didn't want me to add anything at all.  I don't know what to do. I just want to make sure i have a receptive lining!

[queenie123]

All I know is that for me, the lining is thicker on menopur.

[ShadyWheat]

Ah Helen, my love, I'm so sorry to hear about your cycle. I was holding out strong hopes for you this time, especially as we are always in sync! It's so incredibly frustrating when you transferred two good blasts from a donor, do you know anything about the donor age etc? I'm gutted for you, because I think we were both pinning our hopes on DE being the magic answer, I know it doesn't work every time but I would have thought you stood a really strong chance with two going back in. I don't know how much of a difference being a day out makes to lining receptivity, but I have heard that Penny sometimes deliberately puts embryos back at a different biological time as she has some evidence this is better in older women? Did she mention that to you at all? I'm really glad you felt like the embryos were yours once they went back in, that's really reassuring. Did Penny have any suggestions about what to try different next time?

KatKat, I'm sorry to hear that your lining is being slow again. I don't know if trigger affects receptivity (my suspicion is not, because many women get pregnant off a fresh IVF cycle). At Lister even for a 'natural' FET they use a trigger to very accurately calculate when the embryo should go back. So I would be tempted to do that, and also because then you may be able to mature the eggs to collect at least one good embryo.

Queenie - thank you! I think it's amazing what Penny said to you, I can't imagine any doctors in this country being so fantastic and supportive. I think you can really trust in her because she sees 100s of women like us and I can't imagine her giving you false hope. I completely understand what you're saying though about positive visualisation and protecting yourself. I can't balance the two, the only way I can cope is to emotionally switch off. I also had a real drop off in quality once I started using DHEA, and I know that all women do not respond well to it. Perhaps you could try coming off and seeing if things improve. Personally I think your idea to do a natural collection is a good one as it seems like that is the best for you in terms of quality.

Briss - thank you! I'm so sorry to hear about your house situation. It is so stressful to try and find somewhere to buy at short notice, but on the plus side, I think with all the Brexit uncertainty its a real buyers market. You may actually be able to get quite a good deal as there are a lot of people desperate to sell! By moving out of London, our mortgage is actually smaller than our rent in London was (plus because there is nothing to do in the countryside we don't spend as much money going out haha!). However we bought a house that needed lots of work doing and then were never able to spend any money on it because of IVF.

LXP - lovely to hear from you, thank you my dear! How far along are you now? I hope everything is going well and than you are able to relax into the pregnancy now after everything you went through x

Babyhopeful, I hope the 2WW is going well. It's such a headkill - really hard not to overanalyse every symptom but hope you are managing to distract yourself.

Klik, yes you are right, I'm quite ambivalent towards Dr G and his full on approach, and I think I would feel really conflicted if I saw him and he gave me advice that I didn't believe in. Probably safer to just stay away and leave it in the laps of the gods! It is frustrating that Lister aren't helping out more, I suppose they think if I got pregnant naturally I'm not their problem anymore.

Thank you all for your good wishes, it really means a lot to have you ladies behind me, as obviously we can't tell anyone IRL this early on. I'm doing ok during the day at distracting myself but keep waking up in the middle of the night with nightmares about miscarrying again. Of course, I know I'll cope if I do, the main thing that would upset me is to waste yet more time again. Decided to keep the appointment with New Life next week as I still want to keep all our options open as who knows what will happen. Anyway it's time for Line of Duty..... yayyyyy!!! xxx