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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hello all

i'm not a mummy (yet  ^reiki^ ) but needed advice from parents to know if i am being unreasonable  :-\

my B & SIL have a little girl aged 11 weeks - i have suspected since the beginning that she has reflux. SIL also has PND and a busy 3yr old girl......

i get a phonecall most weeks to say please come over and help me with baby - she keeps being sick/crying etc.....so i dash over and sort her out till bedtime and then my bro is home (he's great with the girls)

the first GP Said no problems with reflux - just change her milk - which to be fair they have done.

puking continued so saw different GP who said it's reflux - change to SMA stay down milk - and add gavison. stop hungry baby milk and go back to stage 1 milk....

SIL refused to switch to SMA milk as 'nestle kills babies in africa'. i understand the controversy but she eats nestle chocolate when she fanices a certain bar  :eek: and now she is denying her baby the PRESCRIBED milk her baby needs. she also is refusing to go back to stage 1 insisting that she is a hungry baby........they have agreed to start the gaviscon which i know will help.

so i feel awful:
1. its taken 11 weeks for a dx i suspected when she was tiny. feel they should have pushed GP - 11 weeks of crying and being sick poor baby
2. SMA stay down would be so much better for baby - but due to this nestle africa thing (which she doesn't even understand) she has flat out refused - and i'm cross my bro didn't try to pursuede her in front of GP
3. if SIL Says anything about it i'm not sure i will be able to keep my mouth shut as i am just so cross  :-X

i don't feel i can say anything as i don't want to rock the boat with SIL (she can be tricky) but i love my nieces so much i want them to be happy and healthy. being sick constantly must feel awful for the little one  :'(

am i being silly - the worst thing B & BIL could say is 'youre not a parent what would you know'. i just feel cross  ^bigbad^

Ritz
 

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just re reflux, my lo had it since day one of life.  the only thing that helped him was omeprazole from his consultant.  we have been on aptamil 1st since he was 2 weeks old with gaviscon mixed in.  tbh the gaviscon helped but if the reflux is bad enough then just a change of formula won't work.  lo had hungry baby milk for 1 feed and it made the poor bubba so much worse :(  i'd try aptamil easy digest milk if she is against nestle xx
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
moondoggie - the aptamil easy digest milk is the one my bro starting buying about 3 weeks ago - made a difference for about 2 days then back to the normal sickiness  :-\
 

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Ritzi honey
You are obviousy concerned about your niece and that's lovely, also really sweet of you to go round and help out your B and SIL, especially when you are waiting for your child, that can be very sensitive for many people so well done you for being so caring and helpful even if it hurts, which I'm sure it does sometimes.

Two things I'd say in reaction to your predicament.

First of all, there are other milks that can help and not just SMA - but your SIL should ask the health visitor or doctor for an alternative recommendation.

My second thought is that you should tread very very carefully.  Mums, especially if they are not mums for the first time, really struggle to take criticism, or even well meant advice.  Hormones are all over the place, she's tired, concerned, feeling like she's probably getting it wrong anyway.  And she has PND, which doesn't mean you should treat her very differently, but I would go gently with anyone who's got an 11 week old and a toddler - that's me right now and I would not take too kindly to anyone implying I hadn't looked after my baby properly.   I'm very emotional about the slightest thing, really exhausted and I even got upset the other night because my DP actually did the washing up and I took that as a criticism of my ability to keep up with it!

So I would try to stand back if you can and only say something if she actually asks your opinion about the milk.  It's very hard but you will need to bite your tongue and just help out with the baby.  Or find a very sensitive way to mention that you heard about some other form of milk she could use.
I also don't think that you can expect your brother to persuade her in front of the GP - I'd be livid if my DP did that!

11 weeks may have gone by without a dx but to be fair, 11 weeks go by very fast with a baby, especially if there's another child in the house, and things like reflux can easily be confused with things like colic which will often resolve themselves in time, so she may have felt she should wait to see if the problem didn't go away.  So try to go easy on her, rationality is probably not at the forefront of her mind right now.  

hope that helps,

and hope you have your family soon - congratulations on your adoption approval  :)
Claire x

 
 

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Hi Ritzi,

I have to say I agree with Claire and whilst you only want the best for your nieces, I know I wouldn't appreciate being given advice from anyone, whether they have children or not....sorry. :( It's still very early days and raging hormones combined with a severe lack of sleep doesn't make you the most rational person on the planet!

As to taking so long to get diagnosed, my ds was 11 months before we eventually got him diagnosed with reflux so 11 weeks is quite good! Sometimes it's hard to get a diagnosis, especially if the baby is gaining weight - I know with ds the only reason we eventually got anywhere was because he dropped right down the centiles.

As to the milk, I thought Gaviscon wasn't used along with Staydown milk as it's already thickened, though obviously don't know this for sure. Gaviscon was enough to sort out my ds and it may well be enough for your niece but if not I'm sure your SIL will try something else or go back to the GP.

I think just being there for her as you are is the most important thing, as hard as it may be to bite your tongue.

Chux xx
 

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Hi Ritzi,

I have to say I totally agree with Claire and Chux  :)

It took many many weeks for my ds2 to get a reflux diagnosis and this seems to be quite the norm. I also had my hands very full with an almost 2 year old so things were pretty stressful. As hard as it may be, I really would bite your tongue and just be there for them, esp if she is suffering from pnd  :)

Chux - Yep you're right hun - shouldn't mix gaviscon and Staydown - I used to switch between the two as I hated using staydown.

S xxx

 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
the HV is useless - SIL has been phoning her for weeks describing the symptoms and even when she visited said not to worry  ^bigbad^

hungry baby milk is always worse as it is 'richer' yet SIL insists on using it as her baby is 'hungry' - she's not hungry she's just puking up most of her feed therefore wanting more an hour later  ^idiot^

if people don't want to hear advice then don't ask for it  ^bigbad^ i have never ever spoken out of turn - but if they ask me to dash over - what should we do etc etc then at least listen when i say oh perhaps see the GP, or change the milk, or go back to stage 1, or the SMA formula or whatever.......
i have when they asked 'are we doing this right?' always been positive and in front of the girls always said lovely things about their mum - eg oh you've got a clever mummy making your milk....etc

i only ever say something if they mention it first - and bite my tongue every time when they don't. more often than not they do mention it and i'm as tactful as i can be. SIL has ailientated my entire family and me and dh are the only ones who really visit etc as she has pi$$ed everyone else off so much with her attitude and habit of saying/doing stupid things with the girls  :-\

the pnd dx i think is questionable - her mum died when baby 1 was 6 weeks old and i think she had depression due to that not pnd.....this time around the sheet the HV use said she has it as she answered x amount of questions yes - BUT She would have answered them yes pre babies as that is the type of person she is......we never ever discuss the pnd as i dont' know what to think but even my B says it is just the yes/no questions that make the dx  :-\ 

as long as they don't mention it i will keep stum  :-X but i'm still not sure what to say if she does  :-\

Ritz
 

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Well it sounds as if there's a little more behind the story than you first mentioned.

One thing I would say about the PND questionnaire -if it's the 'Edinburgh questionnaire' used as standard by most HVs,  - is that the questions are not yes/no, they are graded answers - ie a little, alot, not much, not at all, and the questions generally ask you to say how you feel, not in the first two weeks after the birth and on the day of answering, but in the few weeks between - the questions are phrased in terms of 'since the baby' - so there's not so much confusion with the type of person you might have been before the baby.  It's then scored to see if you are showing signs of PND - there would be further discussion and diagnosis after that if you score high. 

Obviously if your SIL is a pain anyway then you need to do and say what you feel is right and appropriate - and I don't suppose we can help you really with your question about whether your response is reasonable or not.

But I would say that by asking for help, a person isn't necessarily asking for comment.  Even if she does mention it I would try to avoid the topic, if you want to avoid an argument, that is.  sounds like you do.

It does appear your SIL has been trying to do something about a diagnosis if she's been phoning the HV all the time, so I still wouldn't be too cross about the delay in the reflux diagnosis. 

Claire x
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
thanks clare for that info......

SIL phoned when baby was about 1 week and said the HV had dx pnd again - i don't know enough about it really but my B was cross as he said lots of the questions would all have been a dx of pnd pre-babies
Eg do you feel lonely, do you feel like doing the housework, are you able to cook supper etc....

tbh SIL has always just sat on her bum complaining and doing not a lot. since the girls she is much more motivated to keep the house tidy and try to cook dinner every now and then (my B does all the chores & cooking around his working hours) so the pnd dx is a bit  :-\

i didn't realise people might ask for advice but not want it really  ^idiot^ maybe if they ask anything again i will say 'do you really want to know my opinion?' before i give it

you are right SIL has been asking HV lots about the sickiness so i shouldn't blame her for that......its just frustrating that now she knows what is wrong and what she can do to help she wont' do the SMA thing or go back to stage 1  :-\

cheers anyways, ritz
 

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Hi

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm not sure of the whole debate of 'Nestle kills babies in Africa', so please don't shoot me down if I've got it wrong . . . I understand that the water in Africa is bad and that formula with bad water will kill babies, but there is also a very high HIV rate in Africa and breastmilk from an HIV infected mother can also kill a baby so maybe formula would be a better option where the water is good. I'll leave it at that.

Katherine
 

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Hi, sorry I have only scanned this but wanted to add on the reflux thing that if nothing is working so far to ask the GP about Carobel.  My GP prescribed it for DS and although it didn't cure the problem entirely  it did make it much much better.  It is a carob bean thickener which can be added to milk or made up with water and spoon fed.  This way SIL can use any milk she likes without worry about ethics etc. 

I hope the whole situation improves soon hun, you must be in such a difficult position  ^hugme^

Fluffs xxx
 

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katherine, i thought i would add (my limited knowledge) on the nestle debate - i had heard that it was that these companies introduced formula through samples to women in hospitals, who then used the formula, unfortunately their breastmilk then dried up, and they then found themsevles unable to afford the formula on a long term basis, or not having proper methods to sanitise bottles, access to clean water etc ... so as i understood it the campaign against nestle was the introduction of formula, marketing it as  better for babies, and leaving women without the choice afterwards to breastfeed ..... once again if i have some of this wrong, feel free to add on ... i can find a link as this has been discussed on other forums ...

i think i have heard that if breastmilk is heated then it can be used by babies of hiv mothers, but once again it is access to these resources, doing it properly etc

(ps i am just adding this info on for clariificaiton for anyone reading this debate ....)
 

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safarigirl said:
katherine, i thought i would add (my limited knowledge) on the nestle debate - i had heard that it was that these companies introduced formula through samples to women in hospitals, who then used the formula, unfortunately their breastmilk then dried up, and they then found themsevles unable to afford the formula on a long term basis, or not having proper methods to sanitise bottles, access to clean water etc ... so as i understood it the campaign against nestle was the introduction of formula, marketing it as better for babies, and leaving women without the choice afterwards to breastfeed ..... once again if i have some of this wrong, feel free to add on ... i can find a link as this has been discussed on other forums ...
SG that is also my understanding of it... and I have attempted to boycott Nestle products because of it - it's hard though - they're everywhere!!

Claire x
 

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I can't believe the Nestle thing is still going on - I remember boycotting the Nestle vending machine in our sixth form common room oooo some cough cough eighteen cough cough years ago  ???  ^idiot^  And I am sure my mother still hasn't forgiven me for emptying her kitchen cupboards of all Nestle products too!  :-[  ;D

Fluffs xxx
 

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Here is the NCT's briefing on the Nestle debate (so sorry to hijack your thread Ritzi, but at least you'll be armed with correct information if SIL wants to know more!)

NCT Briefing

Why do we boycott Nestlé?
What does Nescafé have to do with babies dying?

For many years it has been clear that babies fed formula milk are more
likely to develop infections and other diseases than breastfed babies.
In this country babies are more likely to be hospitalised with diarrhoea
or a chest infection if they are formula fed. In poorer areas such as
Brazil, for instance, one study found babies were 14 times more likely
to die from diarrhoea if they were not breastfed.

Formula milk is much more expensive than breastfeeding. For some
families in poor countries an adequate supply of formula can cost more
than the family income. Formula is over-diluted or mixed with other
foods to make it go further. Clean water, fuel to boil it and sterilise
the equipment are scarce. All these factors add to the risks of
bottle-feeding. UNICEF calculates that around 1.million babies die
through unsafe bottle-feeding in developing countries every year.

The WHO Code

Recognising that the promotion of formula was one factor influencing
families to abandon breastfeeding, the World Health Organization (WHO)
agreed a policy in 1981 to protect and promote breastfeeding. This is
called the International Code of Marketing of Breastmilk Substitutes.
Recommendations are made which governments should enact in their own
countries but the Code also calls on formula manufacturers to implement
its provisions directly.

Key points from the WHO Code:

No advertising of formula, bottles and teats
No free samples of formula should be donated to mothers,
No promotion of formula through the health care system.
Information on leaflets and tins of formula should not imply that
bottle-feeding is equivalent or superior to breastfeeding.
Instructions on tins need to be in local languages

Breaking the Code

IBFAN (International Baby Feeding Action Network) groups and, in this
country, Baby Milk Action, publish reports on companies who break the
WHO Code around the world. They find consistently that Nestlé breaks the
Code more often than other companies1. This is partly because Nestle are
the biggest company, but they have also lobbied governments to prevent
the full implementation of the International Code and Resolutions in
legislation.

Further independent evidence came from a report published by a group of
agencies in 19972 . They studied aspects of Code compliance in four
countries: South Africa, Thailand, Poland and Bangladesh. Once again,
Nestlé were seen to have broken the terms of the Code. The boycott of
Nescafé is designed to pressurise Nestlé to market formula responsibly
by complying with the Code. The boycott is supported by many
organisations from church groups, charities and wholefood shops to trade
and student unions. In fact it is the most supported boycott in this
country.

NCT Policy

NCT supports the Nestlé boycott. Thus workers may not use Nescafé or
other Nestlé products at NCT events.

The NCT and the WHO Code

Campaigning for implementation of the WHO Code is part of NCT’s remit to
promote breastfeeding and support all parents in their decisions about
feeding. For women who decide to bottle feed, good quality information,
free from the bias of the manufacturers, is essential. The promotion of
formula adds to the bottle feeding culture. According to the 2005
Infant Feeding survey, for instance, 30% of breastfed babies were given
formula milk in hospital.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
thank you all for your replies re nestle

the position as i read it now (thanks clare  ^hugme^ ) is what we as a family thought it was - so at least we got that bit right even if SIL doesn't understand it (she's just trying to keep up with our other SIL who is ultra strict on the boycott)

i had baby yesterday - managed to keep  :-X when SIL started talking about the whole issue - just nodded along politely......

baby is still puking loads - i gave her 1pm feed and was a little sickie but not too much - oh good i thought the gaviscon is working.......gave the 4pm feed and boy was she sick! it just kept coming out  :'(

how soon should the gaviscon start working? straight away? or should we wait a while before going back to GP? its been a week now  ???

what can i do to help my poor little niece - she is 12 weeks old today?
(fluffs i will mention carobel to SIL and maybe she will ask the GP for that  ::) )

ritz.
 

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ritzi, I mean this in the nicest way possible, it's not your baby, let them sort it out. I know you mean well, and do continue to support them, but they are the oarents and they need to deal with it.
 
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