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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dear Peter,

Sorry to trouble you but could I just throw this your way for your expert opinion.

I have had IUI/PIO failed.
I then had IVF with day 1 start on downreg. and 400 Puregon. Last FSH blood 12.1. Then got 9 eggs (I thought was good) but consultant didnt. After 24 hrs sperm had not binded/fertilised. After another 4 hrs two eggs had been, 1 failed to go any further but the other did go on to be a 2 cell, had ET day 2 but no pregnancy.
Possibly not a good embryo but was worth trying.

Then we went onto IVF/ICSI. Again same medication.
I got 8 eggs, 3 were not good. 5 injected, 4 fertilised,
2 had cleaved (WHAT DOES THIS MEAN) so no good, only 2 left 1 was grade 2-3 (average to good) 2 cell and the other grade 1-2 (ave to poor) 3 cell. ET on day 2, I asked about Asstd Hatching, they though it wasnt viable and shld be put back on day 2. This also failed.

The consultant has told us to think about stopping and my chances either way are now slim. I feel that the IVF/ICSI was our 1st try as we now know we both have a problem at least DP can be dealt with by ICSI.

Is there anything I can do (i am taking Angus Castus to try to lower FSH) to try to make egg quality better.

Should by day two (ET) the eggs have divided more than 2-3 cell. and as they havent does it mean that they really are bad eggs. Or should they be left to see if they divide anymore as this could be where problem lies.

Not sure whether to give it another go or not due to his remarks, he has said he would do another one but am not sure if that was because of the look on my face. I asked about other options i.e. different medication/starting on day 21 but everything I said he said no to.

My only other option is to think about trying another clinic or donor eggs.

Sorry to waffle on but my mind is in turmoil.

Many thanks for your patience and time.

Love
Gwyn

 

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Gwyn,

Whatever you don dont give up - pray it will happen one day. I am in a similar position with high FSH although my response to IVF only produced 3 follicles. I know donor eggs my best bet but really want my own child.

Good luck in the future.
Love Allison
x

 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Dear Allison,

What is your FSH level? Have you heard of Angus Castus to lower it.

I have just started taking it. I have another FSH blood test when my AF starts. Not looking forward to it. Hope a miracle happens but I know the tablets wont have had a chance to do much.

Its a lot for our heads to get round thinking about donor eggs, but I feel that it grows inside and we give birth, you will feel love for it before it is born. But I know how you are feeling.

take care
love Gwyn

 

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Hi Gwyn,

My FSH varies. It has been tested 6 times as 17, 2, 7, 12, 7, and last month 8. I have also had my Inhibin B tested and cumulative results and poor response to IVF drugs suggest imminent menopause. I have been using Agnus Castus to lower my FSH (since the 17 result but only on natural cycles otherwise it counteracts any drugs you are taking) I think it may have brought down my FSH but poss masked its level only. My consultant says it doesnt do any good but it doesnt do any harm either.

Its encouraging to think you got 8 eggs even if 3 were no good. I think it is good - well done! Hope your next FSH test is good.

I have seen comments on this site from girls who have had donor eggs and they seem to think that as soon as you are carrying a baby from donor egg it will feel like yours. I guess I would feel the same but still hope for a little miracle all of my own!

Love Allison
x

take care
love Gwyn

 

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Please see my comments in your text:

Gwyn said:
Dear Peter,

Sorry to trouble you but could I just throw this your way for your expert opinion.

I have had IUI/PIO failed.
I then had IVF with day 1 start on downreg. and 400 Puregon. Last FSH blood 12.1. Then got 9 eggs (I thought was good) but consultant didnt. After 24 hrs sperm had not binded/fertilised. After another 4 hrs two eggs had been, 1 failed to go any further but the other did go on to be a 2 cell, had ET day 2 but no pregnancy.
Possibly not a good embryo but was worth trying.

Rude question but how old are you?

Then we went onto IVF/ICSI. Again same medication.
I got 8 eggs, 3 were not good. 5 injected, 4 fertilised,
2 had cleaved (WHAT DOES THIS MEAN

This means that the cells in the enbryo have divided i.e. 2 cell to 4 cell and so on.

) so no good, only 2 left 1 was grade 2-3 (average to good) 2 cell and the other grade 1-2 (ave to poor) 3 cell. ET on day 2, I asked about Asstd Hatching, they though it wasnt viable and shld be put back on day 2. This also failed.

This embryology does not sound brilliant. Which clinic is this?

The consultant has told us to think about stopping and my chances either way are now slim. I feel that the IVF/ICSI was our 1st try as we now know we both have a problem at least DP can be dealt with by ICSI.

Is there anything I can do (i am taking Angus Castus to try to lower FSH) to try to make egg quality better.

I have no information on this but if it helps then take it! There is no known treatment to 'improve' eggs.

Should by day two (ET) the eggs have divided more than 2-3 cell. and as they havent does it mean that they really are bad eggs.

No,it could be an egg problem, a sperm problem or a combination of both.

Or should they be left to see if they divide anymore as this could be where problem lies.

It is not good practice to transfer 2 cell embryos, better to wait for further cleavage.

Not sure whether to give it another go or not due to his remarks, he has said he would do another one but am not sure if that was because of the look on my face. I asked about other options i.e. different medication/starting on day 21 but everything I said he said no to.

He does not sound very helpful, I would seek a second opinion.

My only other option is to think about trying another clinic or donor eggs.

It sounds like another clinic might be a good idea!!

Hope this helps and good luck!!

Peter

Sorry to waffle on but my mind is in turmoil.

Many thanks for your patience and time.

Love
Gwyn
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
HI Peter,

Many thanks for your reply.

I am 36 (37 in July). FSH 12.1 (last time and rising)

What is the difference between "cleaved" and "fragmented". At the last IVF/ICSI I was told 4 eggs had fertilised (out of 5) but two had fragmented so these could not be used. Which left the 2 to be put back. On my notes that I received a copy of it says following:

9 follies, 8 eggs, 5 injected, 4 fertilised, 2 cleaved, 2 for ET.

Are the 2 cleaved the same as the 2 fragmented ones?
I am now confused by what they have told me.

I am being treated at SHIRLEY OAKS HOSPITAL, CROYDON for treatment upto and incl EC and then DP takes eggs up to THE BRIDGE CENTRE, LONDON to do his bit and ICSI and ET.

If I change clinics do you know of any good ones?(London)
If I decide on egg donor, I have a friend who has offered but she is same age as me, would they except her as donor or is it 35 and under only. She doesnt want any children of her own but would do this for me. She has been on pill since 17. Would these make a difference to outcome.

Sorry for giving you extra questions to answer.
YOURE A STAR ^thumbsup^

Thanks again
Gwyn

 

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Hi Gwyn,

I will leave peter to confirm this....... but here is what I have found

"The fragments are pieces of cytoplasm contained within the zona pellucida, the membrane surrounding the developing cells. Although the exact causes of fragmentation have not been proven at this time, they may be linked directly to the eggs and sperm that created the embryo. Fragmentation also may be a by-product of the IVF process, caused by conditions related to the culture medium in which fertilization and embryo development occur. It also is possible that fragmentation, found in some 80% of embryos created during IVF, is part of normal development.

In any event, research indicates that significant fragmentation can interfere with implantation and pregnancy. However, assisted hatching and fragment removal together may restore an embryo's normal development potential.


As far as the clevage is concerned.... This tutorial sums it up pretty well.

http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/~w3bio380/Lectsked/Lect12/Cleavage.htm

Good Luck
Tony.
x
 

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Hi Alison and Gwyn
Gwyn thanks for your response on the egg donor/sharing board.

I am also now going to try Agnus Castus to try and reduce my fsh levels.
We would love our ‘own’ baby, but if this is not possible due to my fsh levels not going down then we are prepared to do egg donor as I agree with Gwyn, you carry your baby and give birth and I would definitely feel that he/she would be mine.

Good luck to you both and keep us posted on how you are getting on.

Love Debs x
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi there,

Well, dont know what caused it but my latest FSH blood result was an amazing 8. Not sure if it is cutting down on wine, angus castus or the acupuncture over the last 4 weeks. Have now given up acupuncture as could not cope with the feeling when the needles were in me. Am now looking into reflexology and keep popping those pills.

So I am really pleased, do not know if this will stay like this or go even higher next month. But due to DP having sperm prob not sure if it would help on a normal cycle anyway.

The nurse at the clinic was speaking to the consultant on Tuesday but I have not heard anything from them so do not know what he said but he is very negative with us so I presume it was not good anyway. He has been disappointed with number of eggs.

Tony - thanks for web site have now stuck it on my favourites board.


Hope you are all ok, take care
Love
Gwyn
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Dear Carolb,

Many thanks and dont worry about butting in.

Congratulations on your pregnancy. How far gone are you.

Were all your IVF with ovum donation or did you start with your own. My friend who I have known since we were 12 now lives in Norfolk and has never ever wanted children of her own. She is the same age as me so I do not think they would except her because of that for starters. It must have been extremely difficult as you have said. I suppose you cant imagine the way you watch them until you are going thru it. But you managed and I do hope that you still friends. She has given you the most wonderful gift.

I am so confused I do not know whether it is worth one more go with my own or go straight for donor. I have had mixed thoughts and the reactions that I have had from the few family and friends that know (that this could be my next option) have been quite surprising.

I know my FSH is lower this month but whos to say it wont go a lot higher than before by the time I have my next tx. Just my luck !!

Love to you all
Gwyn

 

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I have just been told that I have a high FSH level at 10.8. I am going for the inibin B test next month. What is Agnus Castus and where do you buy if from?

If your FSH level is high does that also mean that your eggs are of poor quality?
 

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Hi everyone

Hope everyone is doing ok today - well at least its Friday and not Monday!

Gwyn as you say, your levels have gone down, hopefully this is due to agnus castus etc - I bet you are in a right dilema? Personally I would have to give it another go with own eggs as your levels have come down, surely this is worth a go - but hey, what do I know - I'd love to have low levels :)

Oh decisions, decisions, why can't life be easy - must admit, I can't even make decisions about what shoes to buy - so end up buying the lot! What am I like.

Are you gonna do another fsh test this month and see what happens?

DebbieC - your levels are reasonable, my clinic would not class those as high - but maybe clinics are all different and how they class levels etc.

Agnus Castus you can buy from any shop which supplies vitamins, Holland & Barrett for instance.

Good luck.

Debs x ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi there all,

I feel like I would have another go but not sure if it is just a fluke. I have read that they can go up and down.
My dr was not interested at all. So ^NahNah^ to him.
Am not going to go back to that clinic due to different reasons.

Debs, Have you tried A/C and what are your levels. Will not do another FSH untill I do next tx depending on what new clinic I go to.

Carolb- I am so sorry to hear what has gone on. I do hope baby is starting to go from strength to strength.
I am absolutely gobsmacked, how could she do that to you. I know she was stressed for her reasons but bloody hell (sorry about language). You put so much trust into her, I cannot believe she did that. My heart goes out to you at this time. I am sending you all my love and pray that as baby is now in good hands and getting the best from you that it is going to be ok.

I had a feeling about my friend, re no children herself, would be a problem. We feel that we should have at least one more tx with my eggs as I dont think I have given it enough tries really.

1st one IUI - Just a tester really
2nd- IVF - found out sperm do not fertilise egg - so another tester
3rd - IVF/ICSI - from 8 eggs, 5 injected, 4 fertilised, 2 did nothing, 2 got to 2 and 3 cell and put back.

So I feel I have really only done 1 tx. Thats my logic so we should take bull by horns. Am going to The Lister Hospital in London next Monday for open evening, so we shall see what they say.

Take care
Loadsa love
Gwyn



 

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Hi ladies
Oh Carol, so sorry to hear about your difficulties. My goodness what must you be going through - must be awful. Well my thoughts are with you and your little miracle that you will both be fine and it will be worth all the stress and worry (although you could both do without it).

I really hope things work out well for you - please keep in touch and thank you for sharing this, it must be difficult to try and comprehend. Does your friend know how you are feeling? Or are you keeping your distance from her - I'd probably want to thump her one! :-X

Gwyn, I know what you mean about rise and fall of fsh - I'm not gonna test for a couple of months yet- to see if the AC is working - together with reflexology which I start on Wednesday evening - so will keep you posted.

Go for it Gwyn - as you say really you have only done 1 tx (sorry, being a thicky now, what does tx stand for?) I know its something to do with a treatment cycle but not too sure about the initials - god am I thick or what! ^help^

My last level was still high at 14.9 - so not really relying on it being of any use - but hey, you've just gotta keep going!

Good luck with the open evening at the Lister. Today we went to another clinic and they said even though my levels were high, it was worth a shot to see if I responded to the drugs anyway. If not, they would abandon and then at least I would of given it my best shot - but gotta think about this still.

On Wednesday we are off to the Cromwell in London for our consultation, so will see what he says whether it will be worth us having a shot on our own before doing egg donation. But must admit my previous consultant never even mentioned the possibility, so not too sure at the moment.

If not, then we will go on the Cromwell egg donation waiting list and just wait until we are called - which could take up to 2 years.

Good luck to you all, would love to hear how you are all getting on - or if you find a miracle to reduce and keep down these levels!! 8)

Take care
Debs x
 

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Carol

I am so sorry to hear your news, we are here for you always, huge hugs to you and your dh.

Mel

x x x x
 

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Carol

I have been following this thread as I have high fsh and I just wanted to say how much I feel for you at this awful time. There is nothing I can do but send you all my love.

Take care of yourselves

Helen
xx
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Dear Carol,

I am so very sorry to hear your news.

You have been great to me over the time with questions/queries. I just wish I could help you out at this sad time. If you ever need to talk you can contact me via the IM.

Sending my love to you both.
Gwyn

 

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Please see my comments in your text:

Gwyn said:
HI Peter,

Many thanks for your reply.

I am 36 (37 in July). FSH 12.1 (last time and rising)

What is the difference between "cleaved" and "fragmented".

Cleavage is cell division, 2 cell 4 cell and so on. Fragments are tiny pieces of cellular tissue within the embryo. They may or may not be significant in the overall success rate.

At the last IVF/ICSI I was told 4 eggs had fertilised (out of 5) but two had fragmented so these could not be used. Which left the 2 to be put back. On my notes that I received a copy of it says following:

9 follies, 8 eggs, 5 injected, 4 fertilised, 2 cleaved, 2 for ET.

Are the 2 cleaved the same as the 2 fragmented ones?
I am now confused by what they have told me.

Difficult to know from a distance but it sounds like 2 failed to cleave form what you have above.

I am being treated at SHIRLEY OAKS HOSPITAL, CROYDON for treatment upto and incl EC and then DP takes eggs up to THE BRIDGE CENTRE, LONDON to do his bit and ICSI and ET.

Well travelled!

If I change clinics do you know of any good ones?(London)

There are plenty of London clinics who will do everything on site. The Nuffield Hospital in Brentwood is good as is the BMI in Orpington (I have worked at these two!!).

If I decide on egg donor, I have a friend who has offered but she is same age as me, would they except her as donor or is it 35 and under only.

It depends on the clinic

She doesnt want any children of her own but would do this for me. She has been on pill since 17. Would these make a difference to outcome.

Most donors need to have a child of their own before they can donate.

Hope this helps!

Peter

Sorry for giving you extra questions to answer.
YOURE A STAR ^thumbsup^

Thanks again
Gwyn
 

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Carol

Just to say how very sorry I am to hear of your loss - I have not got a clue what you must be going through and how you are feeling - my thoughts are with you.

Take care of yourself and if there is anything I can do................

Love Debs x
 
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