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Oh Pritamin I feel your angst. My baseline was pretty abysmal 3 on the left and 1 on the right. So I’m wondering if I will only get 1 or 2 growing as I’ve never managed to get more than half to respond to stims. I’m also on 300 menopur and letrozole. It’s so hard to know what to do as like you said, it only takes one but it’s such a gamble!

We have also been discussing what next as I’m actually keen to move on to donor eggs given this is my 8th round and we have spent so much cash we can’t keep doing more of the same. He is less keen! So as a compromise I think we might do pgs testing if we do anymore OE cycles as at least that will help with cutting out some of the awful roller emotional coaster!  Thinking of you as I know it’s so hard.
 

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Mouse - -I am so so sorry,  but a chemical shows it is possible.  I had 2 out of 3 for my transfers before our bfp. 
Sending so so many hugs.  Did you have this embryo pgd'd?? 

I'm sorry you want to move on to DE but your OH doesn't.  My DH and I had so so many arguments about donnor vs not over the years, I wanted to try DS to see if it made a difference to our embryo's and he didn't. 

FYI -  Asprin/clexane and thyroxine were the only things we changed for our cycle which worked.  Who knows weather they helped with implantation,

AFM - I had my 32wk scan yesterday, going ok, although he dropped from 30th percentile to 25th percentile.  But not the end of the world - should make it to 37/38wks fingers crossed.
 

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Thanks queenie,

Must feel exciting now getting nearer to the end. Hope the last bit of pregnancy goes smoothly.

We didn’t pgs test this time and won’t for this current fresh but if we do anymore rounds we might. If we get an embryo this round it will be my 5th ET so not sure I can cope with too many more bfn or another chemical/miscarriage so wondering if it would help. Do you know much about embryo banking? I’m wondering if it’s worth doing or not given my age and then fact that we get so few embryos per round.
 

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Mouse - I was thinking about PGS testing too but then we could spend that money on another cycle or put it towards DIVF. If the one or two that we PGS test are not good then we just threw the money out of the window and if they are they probably would work anyway. I understand your thinking of not going through the 2WW though. I'm kind of the same in the sense of 3 day vs 5 day transfer. I know they say that womb is the best place for an embryo to be but would and embryo that doesn't make it to day 5 outside really work if it was put back on day 3? No one really knows, do they as there is no evidence about it, it can't be. It's not like the film Sliding doors. Once it's in, it's in. It's so so difficult.

Queenie - so exciting your getting closer to the end. When is your due date? My daughter was born in April so it's the best month xxx
I can see that you had a 3 day transfer, so that give me so much hope as I will probably end up with a 3 day transfer if we actually manage to get any embryos. Did you have any to freeze? Can you remind me how many did they collect? Did you do banking? i can't remember...

i have my scan tomorrow afternoon and hopefully will have had some steady growth. My only hope is that the ubiquinol I have been taking since the end of July did actually make difference to my egg quality.  ^pray^ (that, and Obi wan kenobi - not sure if there are any Star wars fans here  ;D )
 

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Pritamin I’ve also been taking Q10 but not as regularly as I should have. I had a break from ivf over Xmas and just decided I was going to do nothing including taking supplements etc to try and forget about it. Trouble is I’ve been rubbish at getting back on it!

My consultant has always pushed to go to day 5 saying there is no difference and if it’s not going to develop in the lab it’s not going to develop in in the uterus, but I’m not sure they can know for sure! We have always gone to day 5 even with just one egg but that said it’s been pretty stressful waiting for that call! I’m pretty sure we are likely to only get one or two eggs this time given my follicle numbers.

I am thinking about doing some banking maybe after this and then pgs testing what we get. But how sad it would be to get no normal ones after such a massive effort. Think we would likely only get 2-4 blasts in total.

Let us know how your scan goes. I hope there is some growth.
 

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mouse80 - i'm on the same page as your consultant re pushing to 5 days. I will definitely ask the question tomorrow at my scan. That being said I really shouldn't get ahead of myself, who knows if the follicles have grown at all.

When is your next scan? i'm keeping my fingers crossed for you (and all of us)
 

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Next scan is Monday. When is yours? I have my second covid vaccine Tuesday eve, hoping it doesn’t make me feel too rubbish on top of ivf meds etc!
 

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I completely disagree,  the best place for the embryo is in the uterus,  we grew next to nothing past day 3 in a lab,  yet I am 32wks pregnanct from a day 3 transfer.

I'm not saying it doesn't mean there will be more failures - but it isn't true at all that if they won't grow in a lab they can't become a baby.
 

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Congrats Queenie, not long now!

Day 3 Vs day 5, I remember well pondering this all the time and the only thing I can add is (other than that we would never really know if it's better or equal to be in uterus or petri dish as there simply isn't a chance to compare) timing with the lining:  if you get a morula on day 5 and blastocyst on day 6 you could then freeze and transfer it on day 5 in the next cycle and the chances for implantation will be higher.

In terms of pgs I don't think it makes sense to pgs just one embryo, the error rate is too high Vs just putting it back in and letting nature take its course. If you know you can achieve implantation then chances are the embryo wasn't viable if it doesn't implant (sure the lining could have been not receptive). I had the same thought process and of course the time we decided to pgs the embryo didn't grow beyond day 3.

Banking makes sense if age isn't on your side.
 

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I’m glad you say that queenie, it’s good to hear a different opinion especially from a positive experience. Xx
My consultant said that if an embryo is looking good on day 3 is best to put it back as womb is best.

I had my scan today, no surprise there, I have two growing, one is 12mm and the other is 10mm so at least they are the same sizeish. I have another scan on Tuesday and all going well EC Friday / Saturday.
I’ve been saying positive mantra out loud in the car all the way back from the hospital. I need all the help I can get :)
 

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I honestly think it depends if you can make blasts.  If you can make at least 1 blast per cycle then go for it!

If you stuggle and you spend cycle after cycle with them not growing to blast in a lab - then there are other options.

Pritamin - congrats on your scan, sounds positive.
 

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queenie - i don't really  have much to compared to as on my very first cycle ARGC insisted on natural cycle so we had a day 3 transfer, then my second round we made 3 blasts out of 7 eggs but that was 4 years ago
I was just really glad to see that your success is from a day 3 transfer. So happy for you xx
 

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Queenie, such good news! I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes well and on to a smooth and straightforward delivery of a healthy baby.

Pritamin, how are you finding ARGC? I have not tried them, previously dismissed them as being focused on immunes and stimms. I may need some stimms now to grow one egg but it should be so gently and carefully managed I wonder if any clinic will undertake something this hopeless.
With regards to D3 v D5 ET, you probably know most of my ET were day 2 (not even D3) including my DD (who was only two cells at transfer). I had 3 BFP/MC from D2 and D3 ET. I never had D5. Could not bear it to wait this long but also rarely had more than one 1 embryo.
I am with Kat on pgs. I’d also add that transferring embryo and miscarrying if its chromosomally abnormal (leaving alone the emotional side) might be a way to remind your body of pregnancy and awash your body even temporarily with pregnancy hormones could be a good thing. I have no evidence to support this, just a feeling.

Mouse, I always considered chemical a positive outcome (compared to a clean BFN). In a sense that you were just not lucky with the embryo this time but your very next attempt may just get you there. Having said that, chemicals are cruel and hard to recover from emotionally.  how did you manage to get covid vaccine? I am not sure I want one but I may have a choice if I decide to carry on going abroad for EC.

Kat, I hope you are doing well?

Afm, sorry ladies I am not here often, I just feel hopeless, feels like it’s over. I cannot travel anywhere but even if I could I do not seem to have any ovulation / LH surge or proper follicles for that matter so what’s the point? I still have my period but it’s random. I do not feel there is progesterone being released which means no viable eggs. I still have plenty of oestrogen though but no idea what’s producing it, cysts probably. Occasionally I feel such despair that want to approach a London clinic e.g. Create but when I think about it rationally I end up concluding it’ll end in a waste of time and money. They suggested DE years ago even when I had proper cycle and ovulation so what can I expect now? And yet I still feel the longing. Maybe with good sperm I could still hope for a natural miracle but as things stand with DH it’s a hopeless business. Years of monthly trips to the continent and endless ECs now appear almost nostalgic. I am glad I did try, at least I cannot reproach myself on that score.
One thing I wanted to mention is a change in my breasts after stimms. Now, I cannot absolutely say that it has something to do with stims simply because I am clearly undergoing some hormonal changes e.g. lack progesterone which is part of the big M. And yet, in the last couple of years I developed “lumpy” breasts and had to have biopsy. I appear to have lots of cysts. I was told it’s all fine but obviously it’s a concern and I am now scheduling mammograms / check ups annually. I am not sure it would be wise for me to do any more stims.
 

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Aw Briss, I totally get what you mean about longing. I feel exactly the same. I feel like (and I could really hit myself for even thinking this) that our family is not yet complete. At the same time I know that I’m the luckiest to have such a perfect and wonderful little creature as my daughter. Sometimes I hate myself for not being “happy” with just one when I know here are women out there, many on this forum who would give their arms for what I have.
If we had endless supply of money I’d try OE until biologically possible even though I know that’s probably not sensible.

My cycle didn’t go well unfortunately. We had two eggs and both fertilised with IVF but they didn’t make it past day 3 :(
The embryologist said they stopped developing on day 3 and it’s highly unlikely that they would have made it in the womb. We will never know...

It was such a horrible blow, I thought that was it but then my DH was the most amazing and supporting person and said we’d do whatever I want because he just wants me to be happy ❤
We’ve decided we’ll give OE one more try and then we have a DE round. This is all subject to our follow with our consultant though I’m pretty sure she’d say we should move to DE but if she says we have the tiniest chance then I’ll be happy to take it. I want to ask her if she thinks a different approach could increase number of follicles without compromising quality. I’m thinking having Max dose the first few days to kick start the follicles then reduce the dose just to keep the growth steady but slow.
Not sure if this is even possible.
Also I only took menopur last time whereas in the cycle that gave us our daughter I took Gonal f too. I’m not really sure what the difference is in the two ways...
Anyway there’s a lot to discuss but I’m so relieved that it’s not over yet. Xxx
 

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Hi Pritamin, I am sorry your cycle was a disappointment. Do you know how the embryos looked on day 2 and 3? How many cells, were the cells the same size/shape? My BFPs came from "beautiful" looking embryos. I know it should not be a beauty contest but somehow there is something to it. If they were 4 lovely looking cells on day 2 why not transfer then? Were you going to transfer both or did you want to choose the best one for transfer? I understand your embryologist as day 3 is a bit early to stop dividing so this would unlikely to make a difference in the womb.  Still, it is positive to collect 2 eggs and both fertilised, really good result. I'd be encouraged to keep on going. Can you try a different clinic? I mean if they say move to DE, it might be hard to see them being positive about your OE chances. I see a conflict here: if they see you as a potential DE client (which is more lucrative than OE) would they really be interested in giving their best shot at helping you succeed with OE? This is something I always struggled with. whatever you decide, best of luck I so hope your next attempt will give you a baby!
 

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Pritamin - Well done! you got 2 fertilised,

Your results sound exactly llike what I had cycle after cycle, make 2 or 3 eggs some fertilise, never get past day 3. 

But - I had 2 chemical positives on d3 transfers, then the little one who just kicked and is only a couple of weeks away from being fully baked.  I know there is more chance of failure, but I strongly dissagree with your consultant - for women who can't make perfect  eggs,  the embryo's do better inside the womb.  If they never transfer them, if they never give them a chance how do they know?  Embryo's are so precious, I would turn the question the other way round - don't think about how to get the best result for the cycle.  Think about this, what is the best chance for each embryo?  In a lab or in the womb?

I genuinly would have a consult with someone who really knows natural cycles, honestly quality and quantity do not go together.  Now you are older - Your body only has limited resources and it needs all of them to make one really good egg.  There is no way be make more eggs and better quality (when you are very very low amh), but the evidence isn't always available, so you are really just asking their clinical opinion.

I agree with Briss - for me anyway, I could tell weather or not it was likely to work based on how close to 'perfect' the embryo was on day 2/3. 
 

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Thank you girls for such an expert advice.
To be honest I never thought about asking what the embryos looked like on day 2 or day 3. I was in such a shock. She kept asking me if I had any questions but i couldn't think straight. I will definitely ask them.

I don't think my clinic does donor egg IVF so when I said she'd push me toward donor egg it wouldn't be because they'd benefit from it but because she'd think I'd have better chances. I'm not sure though, will find out on Monday :)

queenie - I know what you mean by natural cycle but I find it so, so hard to believe that it could actually work for me. Our very first IVF cycle was with ARGC and it was an almost natural cycle with two follicles, one egg, one fertilised, day 2 transfer - clear BFN. I know it doesn't mean anything but I just find it hard to believe in it and I don't know if that is the right mindset. I will definitely ask the question though. I also don't know if I'd want to start out with a new clinic. Time is so precious and starting out with a new clinic and for them to get to know me would take time and we won't have more than one OE cycle. It is such a difficult decision. I wish someone could tell me what's the right thing to do... :'(

I saw some interesting approach on this website and I would be tempted to try number 6. What do you girls think? i'm sorry I keep asking you for advice but I don't know much about it. We always had one protocol (apart from the one at ARGC)
https://www.indiraivf.com/ivf-protocols-for-women-with-low-ovarian-reserve/

Briss - sorry, you asked me about ARGC in one of your previous posts. To be honest I found that cycle a massive waste of money. If you asked my husband he would use harsher words :) We spent 9 months and about £15k with them for one day 2 transfer, none to freeze. They found immune issues with me which according to my DH is BS but I'm more inclined to think that it could have something to do with failures as I am NEVER ill. But then ARGC's approach to immune issues could be about money making because they charge an extortionate price (they don't cost that much at all).
I wish I had done a better research back then, I was blinded by their success rates and I just wanted to get going. We could have spent a money at a different clinic and maybe we would have had a few more frosties etc. but then we wouldn't have my daughter.

Anyway, i think i've rambled on enough. Thank you for your support girls. I really do appreciate it. xxxx
 

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Pritamin, i totally get what you mean about starting with a new clinic when time is of the essence. It stops me as well although I did go back to Serum after 6 years, not entirely new clinic but I did not cycle with them before so there is a lot to learn on both sides. they are clearly focused on uterus and infections while my problem is lack of viable eggs. still, i went on and did menstrual blood test which came back with something (always does), but this time I was not pregnant so was free to experiment with AB. they prescribed a very heavy course I must say, it took me over a month to get my gut working again after that. no idea if it did anything to improve my chances. No sign of proper ovulation yet.

re embryos, my Munich clinic gives me a picture of my embryos and it's quite obvious to see the difference on day 2 and 3 when there are only a few cells between 2 and 8, some embryos have very random size and shape of cells while others looks like a set of virtually identical cells. the latter is usually have better chances.

Thank you for your input on ARGC, I remember now why I never approached them :) you are not alone in your views. I also regret a lot of things but let's not even go there, too painful. focus on the positives, you still have eggs, viable eggs that fertilise and that's amazing and very encouraging.

Thanks for the link, it's interesting and I can recognise some protocols that I tried with Munich but as one doc told me it's not about propofol but it's all about a cycle, some cycles are just better than others. it seems to be true for example the first time I tried estrogen priming i produced 3 eggs and 3 day 3 embryos were transferred  - amazing for me as I never had more than one embryo before. but when i tried this protocol again and again i had no good outcome. my only BFP in recent years was from a long protocol, something i avoided for as long as I could as everyone was saying it wont work. I had 4 eggs and one embryo. why it worked I have no idea, possibly this was just a good cycle and maybe any protocol or even natural cycle would reach the same result. who knows. you just have to try and see what works.

btw, i noticed this is a link to an clinic in India? Would you go there for IVF?

queenie, it's getting so close now! how exciting :) 

 

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I just found the website interesting but not thinking about cycling in India. It gave a good overview of different protocols for low ovarian reserve women so I will use it as a starter point at my consultation.
Interesting what you say about long protocol as that is what I want to try now with Buserelin from day 21ish. Can you tell me more about estrogen priming? i don't know much about it.

 
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