Fertility Friends Support Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, this is my first post. Name's Steve, married to sandra. TTC for 8 years. Unexplained. Just abandoned our very first treatment (ICSI) and rescheduled for November. Be great to get to know you guys. I've been looking for something like this for ages. There is no one else to talk to!! No one understands do they? Don't know how to work all the parts of this site yet. I guess I need to add a signature and stuff, but wanted to say "hi".
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,111 Posts
Hiya Steve :)

Welcome to Fertility Friends :)  Great to have you on board with us.  Sorry to hear about your abandoned cycle of ICSI.

Glad you found us and hope we can be of some help :)  Good luck for round two in November :)

Amanda
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Hey there Steve,

Really pleased that you've joined us in here, I hope you'll find this place as helpful as I and many others have.

We'd all love to learn more about you so get posting and let us know what you're all about.

If you ever need any advice don't hesitate to ask........................ don't ask me of course coz I'm useless, but I'm sure others can help out!!! (Chase is Agony Aunt of the month!  ;) (sorry Chase)

Seriously though, most of the people on here understand the pain, understand the questions you may have, understand how hard it can be so now you can be assured you're not alone.

Best of look for November's ICSI, keep us posted.

As always

Catch

^dancing spot^

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey, thanks so much for the welcome. I often think (during a pity party) that I'll treat myself to a two seater sports car aswell if this treatment doesn't work out. This must be a blokes way of "filling the gap" eh? We should be going for our day 21 apponitment around 24th Nov. We attend Leeds General Infirmary. They are putting us on what they call "flair up" or short protocol. So instead of three weeks on a nasal spray and then injections, it will all be done at once and last 10-12 days. Anyone else done this? This is our first and only attempt at any sort of treatment after 8 years of ttc. We have decided to try and work out how to live our lives without little ones if this doesn't work out. how we do that I'll worry about after. Strange really, I swing bacwards and forwards emotionally. One minute I'm real positive about the treatment, the next minute all I can think about is how we get on with our lives afterwards. :-\ was asking for treatment a big decision for any of you guys, or did it seem the most logical next step after trying for a while? For us, we see it as the final step and took so much heart searching. We have looked into adoption three times and don't feel that is right for us. Looked at foreign adoption once too. It always boils down to the fact that we desperatly want "our" child. I was wondering too how folks here stand on the ethics of treatment. Specifically how we all see and class embryos and how they should be treated etc. We believe that life starts at fertilisation and that from that point on the embryos should be respected and cared for as we would a new born baby. We struggled so much with these issues and it has meant that we have given strict instructions to our consultant about how many embryos to create and what can and can't be done with them. We can't bear the thought of creating more than we are willing to use at one time. We don't want to "let the extras perish" or freeze any because we see them as our children and want to care for them from the earliest stage. We know we are lessening our chances of success but don't believe the end justifies the means. I'm sure the consultant thinks we are mad. The freezing of embryos seems so accepted, as does the destroying or donating of "excess" embryos once people have what they desire. Can I say that I totally respect anyones choice in these matters. I desperately do not want to sound self righteous. Everyone has to make their own decisions in these very grey areas. Just wanted to share my heart with people who have no doubt been faced with these decisions to make because you are the only ones who can possibly understand the enormous tensions around these issues. Every part of me wants to be able to give my wife her hearts desire, no matter what it takes. But we both feel we have to act towards any new life that is created, with all the care we can muster. What do you all think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Hey Steve,

nice post! Very thought provoking and I understand the great deal of soul searching you and dp have been through.
Your question on the ethics will definitely get a few people thinking.
I myself have been on both sides of the fence on this question, and, as my dp is donating eggs on egg share scheme I find that, whilst we have common ground, our beliefs are a little way from being the same.
When I was in my first relationship, with a woman for whom having babies was like shelling peas, I believed that there was good reason why some couldn't procreate and foolishly thought that they (which is now us!) should just accept the inablility to have kids and get on with (yes, I was a foolish 'have' who was unconcerned with the 'have nots'!) At that time I even felt that life was not a life at all until the baby was born!
Since then my situation, and my views have changed considerably! My dp and I cherish my little ones, and for me it is wonderful to be father to 3 (even if I still only see them for about 8 hours a week) but for Angie, who loves my children dearly and more than I ever expected, it is a much more difficult proposition. We, together, feel that our lives are incomplete. Angie, because she longs for motherhood, and getting to know and care for my children has shown her a glimpse of that which she so desires. Me? Well.... it's a difficult question to answer, hard to put a finger on the exact reasoning behind my desire (many people might say I should be thankful that fatherhood is something I know!) but it is there, a burning desire to complete our 'family', to have that miracle to love and cherish, to nurture and care for. I'm sure you know, I don't want to preach to the converted!
We approached assisted conception from a very selfish point of view, that is to achieve what we desire. Along the way we became aware of the huge problem that is infertility, and, through this site mainly, began to understand the magnitude of the problem. We then, by chance, overheard someone talking about egg share. We did some research, and, to be honest, we found it very easy to accept this method of treatment. We hear peoples stories...... no read people's lives!.. on this web-site and we view egg share as our opportunity to help people who are, whilst going through a similar difficult situation, are actually in a much worse position than ourselves.
My Mother-In-Law, for all her faults, put it to me that if God hadn't wanted assisted conception, or egg donation, he wouldn't have given man the inteligence to develop the technology. I'm not saying that this is my view, but that made, and still makes me think about things a little more.
So, having had 2 embryos transfered a week ago today, we now view these tiny little cells in Angie's womb as being our children. If you read my other posts you'll see that this is something I am still strongly questioning myself, but for reasons of protection from failure, rather than from conceptual acceptance. The question is this. Is an egg a chicken when it's in the pan? Is roe a fish when it's on toast? Well, no is the answer to that, because an egg is an egg waiting to be fertilised, but an embryo...... that's a different thing, an embryo is a life in creation, it grows from the moment fertilisation has taken place. It may not cry, may not breath, and certainly doesn't look like us in the beginning, but if an acorn has germinated and a little shoot was sprouting from the seed, would you say it was alive if you picked it up? I would, and you know what, I'd pop it straight back in the ground to give it it's best shot!
With this is mind, have we given away babies to the recipient on our egg share cycle? I believe not, I believe that without her partner's sperm, without fertilisation it was never 'alive'.

Ok, I think I've said enough. All the above is, of course, imho, I'm looking forward to more people's peceptions on this topic. I like to believe I think things through completely before making my decisions, but am always open to other people's views and not ashamed to reconsider my views, so...... let me have it!

Thanks again Steve for the post. Found myself asking more questions about stuff I thought I knew how I felt about whilst writing that. Going for a brew and to scratch the bonce a while!

As always

Catch

^dancing spot^
 
G

·
Hi there steve,
just wishing you and your dw all the best for you tx nice to see another bloke on the site hope everything goes well for you
all the best mate

carl ;) ^afro^
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Hi Carl,

just wanted to say good luck for Thursday mate...... keep us posted.

Catch

^dancing spot^
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hey Catch, appreciate the thought and time you put into your reply. I think you are right in that the egg share thing is a different issue to the donating of embryos.


A musing on your Mother in law's comment: I think I agree...but here is a thought...God has given man the ability to create a car bomb, but we would all agree that it shouldn't be used against people. So although we have the ability and intelligence, we still have to decide how far to go with it and how it should or should not be applied...............??

I know of two couples with totally different situations. One couple had ICSI, produced 5 good embryos, had 3 transferred(this was 7 yrs ago) and 2 frozen. They lost one, but gave birth to two healthy twins. They were quite happy to "help" another couple by donating the two frozen embryos.
The other couple had treatment, have given birth to twins and have 4 embryos in the freezer. They admit now that they were so focused on what they wanted, that they have only just realised that they have to decide whether to let those 4 perish or donate them. It is tearing them to bits.
I know I looked at it differently when, whatever I read or heard, I changed the word "embryo" to "child". The second couple above now believe they have to give their "children" away or let their "children" perish.
It brings a whole new world of pain and indecision to the whole process doesn't it? Because there does not seem to be any right or wrong answers.
We all have to decide where we draw the lines I guess. I personally couldn't live with the thought that our child(ren) are out there somewhere, being brought up by who knows who, simply because they were an excess product of a process that gave us what we wanted. I don't mean this to sound harsh and please, please, don't anyone read this as me condemning anyone who has gone this route. As i've said we all have to deal with this our own way and I respect everyone's choice.
As a man I want to be everything to everyone I love. I want to give my lovely wife her hearts desire, AND I want to protect and care for any life created from us....even if that means we sacrifice our own desires and actually go without those little lives altogether....... heck, this is so hard.. :'(
By the way this isn't the only topic I would like to talk through (in case you think I'm on a soapbox here  :-X It's just this is the first time I've been able to share these issues with anyone who "knows". I'm letting off some steam too i think ^phone^
Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Hi Steve,

hmmmmmmm....... good sideswipe on the mother-in-law statement, need to have a think about that one for a  while I reckon. Not sure comparing mens evolutionary advances to do good with their inability to stop doing bad is a fair comparison. I'll get back to you on that one!

Your friends are truly in a difficult place..... I completely agree that donation of embryo's is not directly related to egg donation. Of course there are those who would say that at this time they are merely chromosomes and that the woman who would carry them would be the true natural mother as the embryos would be fed by her body, etc, and of course they would learn all their behavior from the recipient parents. Just how much influence the genetic signature would have on that child as it develops is certainly far beyond my scope of comprehension. I do know that I am glad not to be in their situation as I think there's a real chance of them never finding a resolution they're completely happy with!

I feel for you too man, I wish there was an answer written somewhere for you to clear the fog and make it all make sense, but I fear there isn't. So long as you're strong for each other, and completely honest about your desires and beliefs (I'm not suggesting you're not!) I'm sure you'll do the right thing for you. If you're sure of that, it'll make living with your decisions so much easier.

Don't worry about getting on your soap box in here mate. Nobody will judge you (at least I've not known that before) and if you can't come in here and share the thoughts and express the concerns you can't elsewhere, then what would be the point of the site? I know that I discuss stuff on these boards that I have never and will never discuss openly with anyone but Angie, and yet I feel no inhibition talking to strangers as if I'd known them for years!
Keep it up, it's great to have someone in here with fresh questions and opinions. ^gossip^

As always

Catch

^dancing spot^

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
247 Posts
Guys,

I never really considered the embies as kids as it might be an emotional nightmare, I was a bit upset as the dw got 17 embies of which 2 got put back and the other 15 were flushed as they weren't good enough to freeze. 
I have to agree with steve if for other reasons, I wouldn't want to give the embies to other couples especially if we got a BFN and others succeeded it'd feel weird.

I think our first step was to focus on our own goals and then consider other options as and when they required.  ^reiki^  ^reiki^

Regards
Andy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Andy, Good to meet you!
I hadn't thought about that angle actually. The scenario that we conceive, so then donate excess embryos that others succeed with, and then we lose ours later. This stuff sure can mess with our minds eh? I suppose I don't want to be in any of those positions hence our deciding to do what we have done.

On another topic. I know it's important to keep positive until the facts dictate otherwise, but I can't help thinking about after our Nov/Dec attempt and what if it doesn't work.......are you guys ok talking about this....I don't want to spew out a load of negative here...just trying to be realistic and prepare for the future either way. I'll post my thoughts only if that's ok with you?  :-X
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
247 Posts
Trust me even if it work until you get a puking, peeing, screaming lump of fleash in your hands it can still be a nightmare worrying about all the things taht could go wrong....

As with everything discuss with your partner and see how you feel, be prepared for you not to see eye to eye.  My dw was dead against ever dong treatment again and I had to bite my lip at times but after 6 week scan she changed.  Best is not to rush and then discuss your options but you're not there yet so one step at a time...  ^reiki^  ^reiki^

stay positive.
Andy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks for that Andy. The "cross each bridge as you come to it" approach has to be best, as each stage of this is enough to handle on its own.

Later
:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Hi All,

Andy,

nice to get someone Else's input into this topic mate. I see what you're saying about getting a neg and the recipient getting a bfp, but the situation should never arise that you are aware if the recipient is successful or not. Our ACU has very strict rules regarding non-disclosure of personal information for both donor and recipient, and I believe these rules are HFEA regulations, so no clinic should ever be divulging this information. Therefore, for us at least, if we get a neg next week, we will never know if our recipient has succeeded or not, and that is something we have to deal with. It's not something that would ever prevent us from continuing with this form of treatment, afterall, as I've said before, we donated eggs not embryos/babies. We actually take comfort in the fact that someone else in a similar situation as ourselves, going through this hell just as we are, might be living their dream!
I totally agree with your statement about the worry not ending until the child has arrived (I think that's actually when the 'real' worries start!) and certainly we try to live by the 'one step at a time' ideology. However, saying and doing are different things altogether. Human nature dictates that we proactively attempt to improve things for the future, which in turn means we feel concern when we are unsure. It's built in!

Steve,

I think you may have re-confirmed your decision with help from these posts and that's great! Reassurance of any kind at these worrying times is always positive.

The new thread re positive thinking is an essential question to ask, believe me, I'm certainly going through the exact same emotions right now. 6 days to testing, not eating right, not sleeping, have an awful feeling right down to the pit of my stomach! Daren't show excited anticipation for success, even more afraid to show pessimistic foresight of failure. Had little enough hair on the bonce before all this began!!!!! I wish I could take this one step at a time.......... I wish I believed my own publicity! I keep telling Angie not to worry....... it'll all be fine............. who am I to say that when i feel like this inside? This relates to another post I made....... am I right to hide my concerns to protect my loved one from harm? Who knows....... I know she's fearing the same thing so should we try to protect each other? Does the fact that we're both so concerned but don't show it affect our chances of success? Should we just talk about it and say out load our fears. or will this perpetuate them? No answers for these questions here so will continue to assure my girl that all will be fine, I know my Mum used to reassure me as a child by saying things'll be fine, and 9 times out of 10 they were and I did at least to some degree worry less!
Your quite right about each stage is enough, I felt a small wave of relief at each stage through this cycle so far.... Angie downregged.........phew!.........Angie's stimulation.............phew!............. there's plenty of follicles..........phew!............... we got 14 eggs...........phew!............. 4 embryo's were formed.................phew!............... 2 were transfered.....................phew!...................??????????????????????
A great sense of relief at each stage which I think makes the next stage that little bit more tense, of course, all the little successes so far are minuscule compared to the final bridge.................... and I think that is why we will never stop worrying!


As always,

Catch

^dancing spot^


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Catch,

Take your point about the rules not allowing disclosure of donatees' (is that a word?) information. It's more a mind and conscience thing I think, than something that could actually happen. It's down to what each of us can live with.

I have been hiding my fears a bit from my dw. I guess I fear that if I pour out all my doubts that she'll shatter into pieces. Maybe I'm not giving her enough credit for her immense courage over the last 8 years. I have had times at work, when a huge sob has burst out of me....almost unexpected....and that's the kind of release I hide at home. I'm not sure it's healthy. Want to hear something really daft? Yesterday I actually considered finding a boxing club and asking if I could go spar with someone....just to punch this simmering emotion out of myself!! I've never boxed in my life. I'm basically a wimp and allergic to most pain....and have never hit another person since I was 14 in the playground (self defence ...honest guv) Maybe this is a result of not talking to dw enough?

Chase,

Just to respond to your thoughts on not looking at the embryos as children yet. You say that if I do, then my argument holds strength that is it cruel to put my kids into the freezer or flush them. This is my whole point I guess. Whether I open my eyes to the fact or shut them....the facts remain the facts. That they are my children. So I come to the conclusion that this is not just about what is best for me......but what is right for my children....no matter how young and unformed/undeveloped they are. My children deserve every protection I can give them. My own "heartache" becomes almost the least I can go through to ensure their protection.

I understand what you say about helping others in the same situation by donating. My question to myself over this issue was this; If I'd had children naturally and was quite content...would I be moved enough by others' pain of IF to put my wife and I through treatment simply to donate and help others without any benefit to us at all? Or is it all simply a means to an end in order to get what I want 1st, and that donating is the best way to justify and deal with the "extra" lives I have allowed to be created? Who's well being am I putting first? Who in this crazy triangle is the most vunerable and least able to have a say in the matter.....because surely as human beings we should be protecting these beings.

I suppose I may come across idealistic, but I prefer to be brutally honest with myself to the point of compounding my own heartache in order to try and reach the right conclusion for me. I fully accept others' conclusions and respect then too, because as Catch said, it' s an awful lot harder to live out your own publicity. I just appreciate so much being able to air my feelings (and I so relate to the feeling in the pit of the stomach over these things) with you guys. In the couple of days I've been posting, you have blessed me more than you know.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top