Fertility Friends Support Forum banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,373 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, it's Bluebell again with more questions.  Egg donation is new to me, but hopefully soon I'll be able to give advice too, as you are all so helpful !

Anyway, clinics in the UK seem to give success rates for egg donation IVF / ICSI at around 20-30 % ish, whereas the European ones give 55% or more. 

Has anyone looked into why ?  It is so tempting to believe these stats without querying them, because it sounds so fantastic, but I'm worried there's a catch.  Has anyone looked into this ?  Are the clinics just better ? 

A very nervous Bluebell
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,001 Posts
Hi Bluebell,

I am not an expert either but there may be several reasons why DE success rates are higher in some European clinics.

Firstly it is difficult to know whether the 55-60% vs 20-30% rate is live births or pregnancies i.e. are we comparing like with like?
Some of the Euro clinics report pregnancies rather than live births so this can seem v. high.

Also,  many UK clinics are egg sharing, so success rates will be lower mainly because their egg share patients may also be part of the infertile population (that's why they are doing ivf in the first place).  This means DE eggs are coming from less fertile, older patients.  Even if you do get a donor who gives you all her eggs for one cycle, payment for egg donors is minimal in this country so you tend to get older, more altruistic donors. 

Compare this with the Euro clinics who are using young (early 20s) fertile women and you are getting all the embryos made in that cycle.  These women are paid more than in the UK for their time and trouble and they are also guaranteed anonymity.

Also if the clinic is good at ivf they will be likely to have higher DE rates.  i.e. UK clinics with low ivf stats will also have low DE stats.  A clinic is only as good as its embryology lab mainly, although that goes hand in hand with good drug protocol and monitoring.

I'm sure there are other reasons which I don't know/can't think of right now.  I'm sure someone else will be able to shed some light on all of this.
Daisy
x
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
896 Posts
Hi Bluebell,

I've been told it's because egg donors in the UK are usually from an egg share programme. In other countries the donors give all their eggs to the recipient.

Women in egg share programmes in the UK are usually in their 30s, whereas donors in other countries tend to be much younger (I hear Spain get a lot of university girls aged in their 20s). As a general rule, the younger the donor, the better quality the eggs are likely to be - ie. less chromosomal abnormalities.

In the UK the owner of the eggs gets first choice of the eggs when they are divided up, so the recipient won't always get the 'best' looking eggs. In other countries, the donor is not on a 'shared egg' programme, so the recipient gets all the eggs, and the best ones are chosen for transfer into the recipient.

Hope this helps

Joy

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
Hi

I think the rates may be better because abroad there is no limit on number of embryos that are replaced. In uk it is 2 for under-40y and 3 for over-40's.
Abroad they may replace many if they think safe and hence the success rates are better.
Good luck
Plink
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
896 Posts
Hmmmmmm, not in my experience with European clinics.

I've researched loads of clinics in Europe and from what I've seen/read/experienced very few European clinics will put back more than 2 embies, but do I know that a higher number at ET is more common in the USA and Russia.

Joy
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,001 Posts
Hi
Yes I'd agree with that.  Even in the US if it is donor eggs they will only put back 2 max 3 embies because of the young age of the eggs and their relative fertility.

The law in most Euro countries prohibits more than 3 embryos (some no more than 2).  That is with own eggs and donor eggs.  The only exceptions with own eggs are (I think) Greece and some E. European/Russian countries (even these countries probably only transfer 2/3 donor embryos because of high fertility potential).
Daisy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,373 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hello,
Yes, just checked on the Instituto Marques website and here is a quote from it:

"Two or three days after the oocytes retrieval, the embryo transference is performed. Due to high probabilities of pregnancy we only transfer two embryos. Nevertheless 25% of the patients have twin pregnancy. During that day, resting at the hotel is advisable. The following day, the patient is ready to travel.

Are pregnancy rates high?
Yes. It is the most successful assisted reproduction technique per cycle as embryos have a high implantation rate. On the one hand because they come from oocytes of a young woman without infertility problems and, on the other hand, since the uterus is prepared at its best due to the sustitutory hormonal treatment.

How long does the patient stay in Barcelona?
Two or three days approximately."


So, it's 2 embryos only, but hopefully very good ones ! Someone might like to check with one of the Geeek ones just to confirm if Greece doesn't have a limit.
Love,
Bluebell x
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
117 Posts
I gthink CARE may have better results than others.I think a 50% success rate was mentioned to me but I was stressed at the time at the mention of donor eggs (more reconciled  to the idea now)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
303 Posts
Hi Bluebell,
>Has anyone looked into why ?
Yep. The government's Science and Technology Committee (SCT) looked at Human Reproduction and the Law, and published a 219 page report.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmsctech/7/7i.pdf
>It is so tempting to believe these stats without querying them, because it
>sounds so fantastic, but I'm worried there's a catch.
Probably not.
> Are the clinics just better ?
Yes
Read pages 118-120, and 131-134.
Point 300 tells the HFEA should stop dispensing advise based on prejudice, and start helping people find out the facts.
The countries with the highest success rates are the countries that transfer the fewest embryos. "For example(point 268 ), single embryo transfer is standard medical practice in many Nordic countries, notably Finland (see Table 15, page 120)"
In Finland it takes 6.2 embryos in to achieve a live birth. In Iceland, where 20% of embryo transfers are 3 embryo transfers, it takes 5.6 embryos to achieve a live birth(table 16, page 132). Yet in the UK, where around 34% of embryo transfers are 3 embryo transfers, and it takes 10.6 embryos to achieve a live birth.
Point 300. says "One should be cautious in drawing a link between the regulatory regime and the standard of medical practice, since cultural differences between patients and the medical professions could contribute to perceived differences. However, the UK has tighter regulation than many other countries and yet it appears to have failed to match the best practice of neighbouring countries."
Having read this report, maybe everybody should go abroad for treatment. So why doesn't everyone go abroad? Maybe some are put off by the warnings issued by the HFEA
I pulled up the HFEA's guidance on going abroad for treatment, published on 12th July 2004:
http://www.hfea.gov.uk/ForPatients/AdditionalInformation/Thinkingofgoingabroadforfertilitytreatmentorusingdonormaterialfromabroad
"Safety
In this country, the HFEA inspects all licensed fertility clinics and regulates all licensed treatment. We look at everything from the equipment used to the way staff handle sperm, eggs and embryos in the laboratory. We set standards for doctors and embryologists and we know that IVF treatment in the UK is the safest in the world. No other country has this system of independent regulation."
Point 300 of the report says "We have discussed above the weaknesses in the HFEA's inspection processes and the high standards of treatment in some other European countries. It makes the mistake of believing that tight regulation is good regulation. As we stated in Chapter 5, there are good grounds for concluding that the HFEA's regulation has not been good regulation. "
And also in point 300 of the committee's report says "The EU Tissue Directive will come into force in 2006 in 25 European nations. Given that the standards this imposes on the handling of gametes in treatment centers is higher than that required by the HFEA, we would see no reason to discourage UK citizens to seek cheaper treatment in these countries…………………We recommend that it provide more detailed guidance on treatment overseas based on evidence not on prejudice."
And I also pulled up the HFEA's press release concerning the SCT's report http://www.hfea.gov.uk/PressOffice/Archive/1111664473
One of the lines says:
"Over the last 14 years the UK has become a world leader in fertility treatment and research". I am having trouble equating world leader with the lowest success rates in Europe, and poor clinic standards, but it is probably just me
Lorna.
PS I have skimmed some of the other pages and get the impression the HFEA, would like to make it illegal for doctors to send embryos abroad for treatments that are not permitted in the UK. They can't do that, but I get the feeling that, if the HFEA could, they would, and then they might try to stop patients seeking treatment abroad too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107 Posts
Hey Lorna - good stuff!!!
I was really  ^evil^ with my clinic (private) in the UK before we moved the Germany - they put us through IUI - and only after non-reponse (i empty follicle) did the light bulb come on about POF - they should have done that test much earlier, in which case we would have gone for IVF and maybe wouldn't be on the donor egg route... ^eyes^,  DE is illegal in Germany so we have to go abroad anyway.

Anyway I am so glad we are going to IM Barcelona

Love bigJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
Hello

On this subject -sorry if anyone's mentioned it ....but abroad they put back more embryos. eg in Greece. This will also apply to donor eggs.
I think that although saome studies show that only one is needed I'm not convinced that only one is ok after a certain age group. What do others think?

This also applies to under-forties. I know of one woman directly who had 4 embryos put back at 35/6 years to get a positive -so it doesn't just apply to us oldies!

Plink x
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
I'm in 2ww having had treatment at IM Barcelona. We had three embryos of reasonable quality and two that weren't performing. They put the three healthy ones in, but we had none to freeze, which was disappointing as its puts us in the same situation as egg sharing. The same situation happened in this country to me with egg sharing but Lister would only put in two so one went to waste.

Its highly unusual to use three at IM, but in this situation they were reluctant to freeze only one.

freda

bluebell said:
Hello,
Yes, just checked on the Instituto Marques website and here is a quote from it:

"Two or three days after the oocytes retrieval, the embryo transference is performed. Due to high probabilities of pregnancy we only transfer two embryos. Nevertheless 25% of the patients have twin pregnancy. During that day, resting at the hotel is advisable. The following day, the patient is ready to travel.

Are pregnancy rates high?
Yes. It is the most successful assisted reproduction technique per cycle as embryos have a high implantation rate. On the one hand because they come from oocytes of a young woman without infertility problems and, on the other hand, since the uterus is prepared at its best due to the sustitutory hormonal treatment.

How long does the patient stay in Barcelona?
Two or three days approximately."


So, it's 2 embryos only, but hopefully very good ones ! Someone might like to check with one of the Geeek ones just to confirm if Greece doesn't have a limit.
Love,
Bluebell x
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Posts: 1



«--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi all I'm new to the site I'm from ireland Ive done 2 donor egg cycle in Crete both ended in chemical pg Ive now been tested for immune issue and they found out that is my problem so ill be getting lit and will be on heprain for this cycle i put in 4 embryos at a tI'me i love the clinic im in they are great  ,i can ring them any time of the day and they answer my querys it was also a lot cheaper
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
longbaygirl said:
Hi Bluebell,

I've been told it's because egg donors in the UK are usually from an egg share programme. In other countries the donors give all their eggs to the recipient.

Women in egg share programmes in the UK are usually in their 30s, whereas donors in other countries tend to be much younger (I hear Spain get a lot of university girls aged in their 20s). As a general rule, the younger the donor, the better quality the eggs are likely to be - ie. less chromosomal abnormalities.

In the UK the owner of the eggs gets first choice of the eggs when they are divided up, so the recipient won't always get the 'best' looking eggs. In other countries, the donor is not on a 'shared egg' programme, so the recipient gets all the eggs, and the best ones are chosen for transfer into the recipient.

Hope this helps

Joy
Sorry but i disagree with this. I am about to embark on egg-share as a donor and i will not get any say in which eggs i get, good bad or indifferent. Tehy are shared equally. In fact i could end up worse off as if i produce an odd number the recipient gets this i.e if i produce 15 i get 7 recipient gets 8. They are divided equally as they come out not depending on quality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
911 Posts
Hi just want to second what clare said we dont get any choice  with eggs and like she also said the other couple get the extra 1 if its an odd number

i cant comment on the age factor  but im only 24 i have proven fertility and ive heard off a lady who uses donor eggs  that there are a fair few younger girls that do it

Kerry xx
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,050 Posts
Hi all,

I am from Greece and I did my first IVF in a state hospital in Athens.
Here in Greece with the new law, the IVF treatment is free, we don't have to pay anything, maybe thats the reason of a lot of successes cause a lot of women can try easily lot of times not thinking the money..

Also, with the new law, in the ages under 40, 3 eggs can be transferred and after 40 years I think only 2..
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top