Sarahlo, does your clinic have an embryoscope? If it does then having the embryos monitored and pictures taken every 5 mins can tell the embryologist a lot about quality.

 

Hi - Yes they do have it actually I just checked the website.

Do you think this will help if I end up with a low number that fertilise? Obviously I'm just thinking worst case scenario but I want to be prepared.  Thanks

 

Sarahlo, I've always got a small amount of eggs and fertilised embryos in my cycles and never had anything to freeze. My two cycles I only got two fertilised each time of average quality. Both these times I had 3 day transfer and got pregnant each time (first time I eventually went on to have a loss). I really believe through reading a lot that sometimes the embies do better in there natural environment. I know I was gutted each time that I didn't get to blastocyst stage but lots of people with top quality blasts still go on to get BFN, it's a very weird science. Good luck! x

 

Thanks Pinkchick - I think I've just gone into panic mode as today I still have a batch of follciles that are inbetween sizes 12-14mm so may or may not make it to maturity come ec on Friday. so that would mean I've only 7 or so that are at there moment over 17mm. x

 

This Monday I had my eggs taken out and there were only two. But both fertilized and today they were four cells. My clinic grows all eggs to blastocysts in an embryoscope because they believe it's the best thing to do and they have the best results among all the private clinics in Denmark, so they must be on to something.

I know my two eggs might not make it to Saturday but then they probably wouldn't have made it in my womb anyway so I will save myself some waiting and grief.

But of course does some 2 and 3 days eggs transfers make it but chances are they also would have made it to blastocyst in an embryoscope, because they were good eggs. So you would likely have ended with the same result.

 

Sarahlo, don't worry,it is better to have fewer eggs as they tend to be higher quality. My 25yr old donor in Prague produced 5 mature eggs and 2 nearly mature on Mon and the next day we had 7 embryos.

Here is some information my clinic has about the embryoscope: http://www.pragueivf.com/en/art/embryo-monitoring/

Good luck with whatever you decide.

/links

 

Thanks guys much appreciated. I've just been so down this afternoon.

njr_26 - One question can eggs still mature outside of the body after ec??

I've emailed my clinic and if I can I'm going for Embryoscope x

 

Sarahlo - u have totally hit the nail on the head, I had a low fert rate (3 out of and had a long chat with the lab and they said that if doctors/embryologists had their way everyone woul have 5 day transfer Becuase if it wouldn't survive to five days it won't make a bfp anyway but that they do three days for the psychological effect for patients so that they felt like they made it to transfer but that ultimately it is just putting off the inevitable. With this advice I decided that regardless how few I had left on day 3 I would go to day 5 as I would rather know sooner rather than later if it didn't work. I only had three on day 1 but all three were still there by day 5 so it was a risk that paid off x

 

Thanks for the tip KDJay. I think I am going to do the same to be honest. I m really in limbo state at the moment I have 7 mature follis and 6 inbetween stage that may or not make it to maturity by ec on Friday. So worst case scenario i have 7 best case Id say probably 10. then there is drop off rates etc.. I am a realist at the end of the day so i would personally rather they did not put anything back they knew wouldnt really make it. Problem is getting them to admit that lol.. I have emailed and asked about embryoscope. I think depending on how many I get and fertilize I will probably do the same and push the to blasto if they can.

 

I'm a realist too and decided to take a medicalised view of it rather than an emotional view of at least getting to transfer. I'm sure if u raise it with the embryologists( it's them you want to spk to not just the nurses/doctors) they will be welcome to share this with you. I'm sure u are worrying for nothing, that sounds like a good amount of follies to me! I had no clue how many follies I had or size, I had 15 eggs and donated 7, left with 8. But it's a cliche and you really only need one! X

 

Sarahlo- if u can i would wait until day 5. I had 3 fertilise and 2 put bk on day 3. Im assuming they stopped progressing as ended in bfn however they left one until day 5 and froze ut. Ao that made it til day 5. If they left all 3 they might have seen 2 ofvthem not maje it and 1 make it, so would have had that transfered instead.

Really wish they left all 3 of mine!!

 

Hi,

For me day 2/3 were my most successful cycles - I got two BFPs and one chemical.  When my embryos were cultured to blast (and I always had a high number of embryos) they either didn't make it or were of poor quality and never resulted in pregnancy. I think it is possible sometimes that embryos that don't make it to blast in the lab may have made it in their natural environment - I can't explain what happened to me any other way. I guess it depends on the embryos and the person - sadly there is no definite answers.

Wishing you lots of luck.

S xxx

 

Hi,

On my first round of IVF I produced two eggs - both fertilised. As it was my first cycle I decided to go to day 5 as I had no idea what my egg quality was like. Both made it to blast and I had both put back and had a chemical pregnancy. On my second cycle, I produced 5 eggs, 4 fertilised and I had 3 good quality embryos on day 3. I knew that I probably would never have 3 embryos again - my clinic said my quality was good and that it would make know difference to put them back on day 3 or 5. I put all 3 back on day 3 and this was my successful cycle. I think what I am trying to say is go with your gut,  on that cycle my gut told me to put back on day 3.

x

 

Sarahlo, I think the 2-3 day transfer is really important psychologically for some people.  Going through the drugs/egg collection etc and ending up with nothing to put in is not an ideal way to end a cycle.

Also some clinics prefer a 3 day transfer (Create does as a friend of mine has been treated there). 

In my first two IVF's I had 23 and 24 eggs collected and both times got to Blast with extra to freeze. This round with a new consultant, he only collected 6 eggs, five were fertilised via ICSI and they recommended a 3 day transfer as I only had 3 developing.  I opted to go to blast, knowing that might leave me with nothing, but was glad I did as today I had two transferred back.  Not great quality, I am nearly 38, but good enough.

So I would say, if you can definitely handle potentially not having anything to transfer then ask them to culture on to day 5...

Good luck xx

 

Thank you for the advice - Thats crazy you had so many first 2 times then 6 the last time. do you know why?

I think your right about the psychological aspect side of things. I think I would be gutted to end up with none but again me personally id rather know sooner rather than later. I think i'll judge at the time. If they look good I am hoping they will want to continue themselves to blasto. But anyway I'll worry about all this if and when I get there. I have just triggered ready for the collection Friday morning. Crossing everything.

Good luck on your cycle hope the 2ww isnt driving you too crazy

 

Good luck!!! Xxx

 

Thank you 

 

I have a medical/scientific background and I don't believe 3 day transfers are for 'psychological' reasons. Both of my 3 day transfers are asleep upstairs !!! My clinic has a cut-off of 6 embies at day 3 they would go to blast, any less then it would be a day 3 transfer, as going to blast would risk none being left at day 5. The embies do fare better in their natural environment (you) and prior to the use of an embryoscope, taking out for monitoring could have a detrimental effect on the embryos. I have seen ladies on here have terrible quality embryos transferred and they have been the fighters & gone on to be born !!  The reason blasts have a better success rate is that by day 5 it is much easier to see & select the better ones to transfer, whereas at day 3 it is trickier. I guess that's why of my 3 embryos at day 3 they obviously froze the better one as I had to go back for him 
You must trust your embryologist, they have your best interests (& their stats !) at heart.
Good luck 

Bundles x

 

Bundles - those were the words from the embryologist themselves and when I specifically asked 'won't they fare better inside than in the lab I was told categorically no by the embryologist . She said that if it was up to them they wouldn't offer 3 day from a purely scientific perspective and would always go to day 5, how can you tell from a cut off of 6 which are the front runners? That's such a high threshold?! Even with only 3 at day 3 the embryologist said to go to day 5 and it wasn't even a choice in the end to make. This is not my opinion just the advice from the embryologist who I trusted that to me made perfect sense

 

KDJay I'm surprised they were so definite, there's really no way that they could know for sure. I guess different clinics have different criteria based on their experience, but that's all that it is - experienced guesswork !! I know that potentially with 50% drop-off each day they can almost guarantee at least 1 blast from 6 embies at day 3 so I know that my clinic base it on statistics.  I know that I couldn't risk having none to transfer. If day 3 transfers are so bad, why do so many clinics do it - and get great results !! I'm not sure I would trust your embryologist - I'd have lots of questions for her, I'm a nightmare    Of course, RL can be different. A dear ff got 8 eggs, had 2 blasts transferred to get her DD and had 3 blasts left to freeze.
Even the transfer of 2 expanding blasts will not definitely give a BFP as, of course, lining etc plays such a part too so even successes are dependant on so many things.

 

Bundles she was so sure as she said there is no study that suggests they do better inside than out and obviously those three day transfers that do well would have been doing well at five day too inside the lab , I definitely trust the embryologist, we spoke for about an hour regards all these issues on day 1 and the quality of the lab staff was the reason we chose our clinic plus she was right we only had three, had two transferred (bfp) and the third is our frostie. She was not saying five day embryos are better than three days (obviously) she was saying like you that it just makes it easier to select the right one and not leave the right one behind so if you only had two left at day 3 and were going for det u might as well do a three day transfer. With a cut off of plus 6 it is highly likely you are going to leave the right one behind instead of success first time x

 

I agree with what your saying KDJay. if anything your situation somewhat proved this case for you. because you only had 3 embies most clinics would have panicked and wanted a 3 day transfer even though they all looked good. Had you had them as a 3 day transfer you would have become one of those statistics that 3 days works. as you pushed them to 5 they made it to blast anyway. I'm really starting to believe al 3 day transfers would have made it to blasto anyway in the lab.

 

KDJay, my embryologist agrees with yours - either they will make it to blast or not (whether in or out) and he would argue that the womb is not the best place for a three day embryo as naturally it would still be in the Fallopian tube which has different conditions to the womb.  However, that said, there are brilliant results for 3 day transfers so people shouldn't be put off if that is the option they get!

Sarahlo - GOOD LUCK with your EC - hope you get lots of top quality mature eggs!

Xxx

 

I definitely don't agree that 3 day transfers is more for psychological reasons. I know there are some clinics that prefer 5 day transfers but there are also clinics that prefer 3 and a lot of good literature to back up that embryos thrive better in their natural environment as opposed to a dish. I had average embryos put back in at 3 days and both times got pregnant. My cousin had identical twins with a 3 day transfer with an embryo they said was very poor quality at day 3 and were not even going to take a chance with. I've heard of so many woman being devastated because they had perfect blastocysts transferred but went on to have negatives. IVF has been going on for years and up until fairly recently it was 3 day transfers they did resulting in millions of healthy pregnancies.
Just because an embryo may not make it to a day 5 blast definitely does not mean it won't make a healthy pregnancy and I and millions of other woman are proof of that. Could you ask your clinic for some statistics on their success rates for both 3 and 5 day transfers? This might reassure you a bit, all clinics have this information to give to patients. Best of luck to you! X

 

it's a minefield and the thing is ultimately nobody knows for sure. Regarding perfect 5 day blastos ending in a negative this is a whole new ball game. The many I've spoken to and the few that I know this happened to turned out they had other issues going on like immunities diagnosed after etc.
But yeah all doctors and consultants say something different which doesn't help patients. I think the closest we can get to knowing is seeing some sort of examples. KDJay is prime example where most clinics would certainly do a 3 day transfer. she took the plunge and went to 5 day anyway where it paid off. I'll ask my clinic for stats if the opt for 3 day transfer that's a good idea thanks x