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progesterone levels in pgcy - hope this is of use

6.9K views 6 replies 4 participants last post by  Tinkelbunny  
#1 ·
hello ladies,

I have some information on this, following a friend being diagnosed with low pg levels last week. Here is the summary of the informatin:

1. are progest levels relevant to mc?  yes but the initial idea was that they were only linked to poor embryos that would m/c regardless. THis has gone. the more progressive clincs look at progesterone levels as a separate issue and possible CAUSE of mc.

2. my dear friend had progesterone level of 34 following DE, sparking off all this investigation by me and her husband. it transpires that ARGC is the most concerned about levels and in a normal IVF pgcy, would look for around 80 plus at week 4, with 50 as a bottom line. (NHS said over 40 but I take that with a pinch of salt)

3. you cannot just say "Im fine as Im not bleeding". Progesterone does more than keep the emdometrium in good order. Good levels do have to be mantained for at least the first 12 weeks. Thereafter placenta should take over.

4. it's possible to make anti progesterone antibodies. that's a bit of a can of immune worms leading to IVIg potentially.

5. "cure" - friend is now on gestone 100mg, supplemented with cyclogest.

HTH


Anna xx
 
#2 ·
Thanks Anna that's really interesting. Low progesterone has been a bit of an issue for me and I'm also on gestone and cyclogest this time, so encouraging to hear that your friend has had the same advice.

Wondering whether you or your friend have seen any evidence that you can be on too high a dose of progesterone? If not, I wonder why clinics don't just give us all a really high dose?

Also, I've been wondering for a really long time what causes AF. Whether it's progesterone levels falling at all/a lot, or whether progesterone needs to fall below a certain level. No consultant has ever been able to answer that one, but I've long suspected it's the former and therefore wonder whether a good strategy for those of us who tend to bleed before the end of the 2ww would be better off gradually increasing the progesterone over the 2ww rather than just starting high and continuing, to counteract any natural or immune prompted falls. Does that make sense?

Caroline
 
#3 ·
Anna I've asked the same from my clinic and my doc said he quite often has some patients on 200mg of gestone. i had a DE m/c and due for a FET this month. I've asked him to start me off high on both Prog and oestrogen patches with the proginova. i have read a previous post where it was mentioned that the ARGH wants your prog at 150 or above.

my levels with my DE were: day 3 embryos transfered on the 31/01/09

16/02/09 pog: 131nmol/L
            oest: HI 1098pmol/L
            HCG HI 214 iu/L
23/02/09 prog: 131
              oest: 970
            HCG: 2653
25/02/09 prog: 127
            oest: 883
            HCG: 1776 m/c 

29/04/09 bloods after being on buseralin spray since 21/03/09

prog: 1.42
oest: 786
LH: 1.1
FSH: 2.3

from the above it would seem that my oest dropped and caused my m/c.

 
#4 ·
Sorry to hear of the mc.  ^hugme^

I am not following your nos entirely though. Do ou think the drop in E2 from 800 to 700 caused a commensurate drop in progesterone? (I assume you stopped the spray long before the last bloods)
Sorry i am not following it.....
 
#5 ·
Found this info in the Beer Centre Booklet that might be helpful:


Introduction
Progesterone is first produced by the corpus luteum of the ovary and production from this site is
necessary for the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. From implantation of the embryo onwards for 40
weeks the placenta takes over the production of progesterone (see graph). The levels of
progesterone increase dramatically all throughout pregnancy. Progesterone production is
necessary for the safe maintenance of pregnancy and all pregnancies will fail if progesterone
production is too low.

Many women with infertility, implantation failures and/or miscarriages produce low levels of
progesterone as seen in the bottom line of the graph. These women require progesterone
supplementation to bring them into the safe levels (see thick line, which indicates mean values,
on graph and limits of two standard deviations of the mean). Based on my experience in treating
autoimmune women, this supplementation must continue until the 16th week is completed.
Progesterone-like steroid medication has a variety of effects on the immune system. This type of
medication

1. Blocks inflammation that can lead to scarring and damage to the placenta
2. Blocks the T cells and the B cells (lymphocytes) that can cause rejection of the placenta
3. Blocks the natural killer cells from releasing factors such as tumor necrosis factor (TNF)
that can damage the placenta and the lining of the uterus
4. Prevents lymphocytes from wandering into the placenta, sticking there and doing damage
5. Causes an increase in HCG production by the placenta, and HCG and progesterone block
the killing power of NK cells
6. Prevents prostaglandin production by the uterus and stops contractions from occurring
7. Causes the cervix to produce a cervical plug that is rich in antibodies, which prevent
germs and viruses from gaining access to the baby and the placenta
When progesterone supplementation is given to a mother, its half life in the blood is very short.
In four minutes it begins to be excreted rapidly into the urine. The most efficient route to take the
progesterone to insure the best blood levels and the longest survival of the progesterone in the
blood is to use vaginal suppositories. The next best route of administration is to take injections of
progesterone. The least effective is to take the progesterone by mouth

Progesterone Replacement Therapy

The following are my recommendations for progesterone replacement during
the cycle of conception and during pregnancy.
1. Progesterone vaginal suppositories 25 mg twice daily. Start on day 16 of the cycle of
conception or two days following ovulation. Continue this medication until a positive
pregnancy test (see below). Stop the medication if menses starts and the pregnancy test is
negative. Many women have bleeding with implantation and stop the progesterone
because they feel every thing is over. Stopping the progesterone at this time can damage
the pregnancy. Never stop progesterone until the menses starts and the pregnancy test is
negative. Progesterone replacement therapy in an IVF cycle may differ from this. Talk to
your Reproductive Endocrinologist about plans for progesterone supplementation the
cycle of conception. In couples that are trying on their own to establish a pregnancy, I
recommend that this protocol be used for only three cycles and then take a cycle off.
Progesterone replacement for more than three cycles can interfere with the next cycle in
having a birth control type of effect. There is carry over of the progesterone into the next
cycle and this delays or prevents ovulation. This problem is prevented by stopping the
progesterone for cycle 4 and initiating it again with a positive pregnancy test.
2. Increase the progesterone vaginal suppositories with a positive pregnancy test to 100 mg
every night. Continue this through 16 weeks of pregnancy. Test the b hCG and the
progesterone levels every 3 days until the progesterone levels stay in the normal range
20 and the b hCG levels reach 5,000 or above. At this time a heart beat can usually be
documented by ultrasound.
3. If the vaginal suppositories do not bring the progesterone levels to the safe range then
progesterone is given by injections of 100 mg every day or every other day until adequate
levels are achieved. This supplementation must continue until the 16th week of
pregnancy is completed.
4. Some doctors advise the patients to use Crinone Gel 8 mg daily. This is an excellent and
non messy way to take progesterone vaginally. Patients who use Crinone Gel cannot rely
on progesterone testing of the blood as documented above. Crinone, though effective, is
different enough chemically from progesterone so that it is not detected in the blood by
the progesterone assay. Many patients panic about this.
Many doctors advise their patients that progesterone supplementation is not necessary after 7 or
8 weeks. I do not give this advice since progesterone is produced in ever increasing quantities
throughout pregnancy and enough progesterone is necessary to quiet the potentially killing
autoimmunity in many of the patients that I see. I rely on data in this regard and do not simply
give opinions. If your doctor has different opinions about this please ask him/her for data that
refutes what is listed on here.

Progesterone Levels (ng/ml) During Pregnancy

Mean
+2SD
Autoimmune Patient
21

Allergy To Progesterone

Some autoimmune women develop allergies to their own hormones, including progesterone. The
antibody which they have produced can be detected by looking for progesterone antibodies in the
blood or by doing a skin test which shows the allergy to progesterone. These antibodies further
decrease the levels of progesterone in the blood. The cells responsible for this are the CD 19+5+
cells. By 10 weeks of pregnancy these cells are usually suppressed to normal numbers and the
progesterone allergy is less of a problem. Women with antibodies to hormones require higher
doses of progesterone supplementation than women without this allergy. I also recommend that
women with allergies to progesterone take the Crinone Gel, because it is chemically different
enough from native progesterone such that the allergy does not inactivate it.



Best wishes

Bx
 
#6 ·
B, thanks so much for all that - that is FASCINATING.

it seems to me that this is potentially yet another area that is not fully covered by non immune drs. He certainly makes a compelling case. We'd be very interested to see the graph as my friend is getting her pg levels tested on a weekly basis from now and it would be fantastic to have sthing to compare the results against. (and not just the NHS idea of 40 minimum throughout the entire pgcy!)

nb to anyone reading, remember the conversion factor for pmol (uk mostly) to ng/ml (usa mostly) - 3.18.
 
#7 ·
anna yes i think because there was a drop in E2 that it caused the m/c.
no i was still on spray when the last bloods were done. spoke to the clinic today and the doc said because my oest was still high it could indicate a cyst. i have not had my AF that was due on 24/04. i was due to start on Proginova on the 01/05. am on 3 sprays a day of buseralin is this normal..you seem so well informed.

brilliant bit from Beattie2...thank you so much i've sent the note to friend who is on her 2ww and she's made a note of the info.